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How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

FrumiousBandersnatch

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... I write an autobiography, but Frank down the road says, I know Razz...better than she knows herself because I have lived down the road for 2 years. Who should we believe?
Do you mean should we believe that what's in your autobiography is a more accurate picture of you than what Frank says about you? If so, I would suspend belief until I knew more. People often portray themselves in a very positive light in autobiography, and neighbors often know what someone is really like in certain situations.
In the case of God, scripture claims to be the authority on who God is. If we take the word of Frank on who God is, aren't we just taking his perception of God and claiming that the autobiography doesn't exist?
Yes, if we take Frank's word we're taking his perception of God; but why would we? And no, we wouldn't be claiming the autobiography doesn't exist, we'd be saying we favour Frank's word over it.

But for God, the 'autobiography' (assuming you were making an analogy to scripture) was actually ghosted by a number of authors who claim, or on whose behalf it is claimed, that what they wrote was influenced or directed by God. This makes it hearsay - so by some measures Frank's first-hand version should carry more weight ;) But in both cases I'd apply Hitchen's Razor, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

I guess it's common practice for celebrities to have their autobiographies ghosted, but not posthumously by a number of authors (aren't those biographies, or hagiographies?).
 
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razzelflabben

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Do you mean should we believe that what's in your autobiography is a more accurate picture of you than what Frank says about you? If so, I would suspend belief until I knew more. People often portray themselves in a very positive light in autobiography, and neighbors often know what someone is really like in certain situations.
what I am saying is that Frank will know some things, I will know others, together we will have a much clearer picture of truth. But, with Frank alone, we simply can't be sure.

Here is an example, in the analogy Frank has lived next to me for 2 years. But in the autobiography I talk about things that happened long before I ever met Frank. What then if Frank says, when she was young she broke her leg riding a horse. would he really know that? of course not, that was before we met. However, if Frank says, a year ago, their son died. And the autobiography tells about our son who died a year ago, then Frank collaborates the book, right? Likewise, if the Bible is the claimed authority in this case, that is the autobiography and Frank (the believer) contradicts the story or proclaims to know something not in the book, why wouldn't we think that is delusion? However, if Frank confirms what is in the book, wouldn't that add credibility to the story?

The quandary that every single true believer faces is how to live a life that testifies to the truth they know within. Like the neighbor, the true believer understands that how he lives his life testifies to the truth of Christ, yet, we are flesh and blood and thus a quandary. This is where the HS comes in, but I digress. If all you do is listen to the believer and base all your understanding of God on what man says, we have no reason to believe what you say, however, if the believer confirms the book, credibility is added to the claim.
Yes, if we take Frank's word we're taking his perception of God; but why would we? And no, we wouldn't be claiming the autobiography doesn't exist, we'd be saying we favour Frank's word over it.

But for God, the 'autobiography' (assuming you were making an analogy to scripture) was actually ghosted by a number of authors who claim, or on whose behalf it is claimed, that what they wrote was influenced or directed by God. This makes it hearsay - so by some measures Frank's first-hand version should carry more weight ;) But in both cases I'd apply Hitchen's Razor, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
but see, that is just it, the analogy assumes that both are working together not in opposition to one another. Just because Frank might say something that isn't quite true doesn't make the autobiography false. Likewise when Franks testimony lines up with the autobiography we can't say 100% but there is a level of credibility that we didn't have before.
I guess it's common practice for celebrities to have their autobiographies ghosted, but not posthumously by a number of authors (aren't those biographies, or hagiographies?).
WEll, that is a whole nother discussion, but the understanding from scripture is that God inspired the authors and since they are hauntingly similar to one another that is kind of like Frank confirming the story.
 
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quatona

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That didn't answer the question.
The question was: "Does it work for you?", and the answer was "Sure, works for me."



Right, so why dwell on just the
huh?



Your agenda of wanting us to dislike God.
I don´t have such an agenda. Your psychic powers failed you.



What reason have I given you to believe I beat my wife?
As much reason as I have given you to believe I "want you to dislike God" - none.

I think you and Archy need a little time to yourselves, in order try to come to grips with reality...just what you are doing here...you seem to actually be forgetting your actions here, or you know and are just being your usual contrary selves. I'd bet on the latter. :)

Once you come down from whatever it is causing your conflict with yourselves, answer me this please....Why do you want to turn us against God?
Once you´ve stopped trying to read my mind and intentions (and are willing to actually look at and address what I say) feel free to come back to me.
 
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Kenny'sID

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The question was: "Does it work for you?", and the answer was "Sure, works for me."




huh?




I don´t have such an agenda. Your psychic powers failed you.




As much reason as I have given you to believe I "want you to dislike God" - none.


Once you´ve stopped trying to read my mind and intentions (and are willing to actually look at and address what I say) feel free to come back to me.

Hardly takes a psychic to see your intentions.

Again, Why do you want to turn us against God? Why are you so angry with a mythical God you don't even believe exists?

Do you feel this way about Snow White? Hansel and Gretel?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Whoosh! He was paraphrasing the traditional example of the 'loaded question' fallacy, mirroring your own.

Precious. LOL

Whoosh! and I was making the very viable point that he had no reason to do what you think I didn't see he was doing. I have reasons for my assumptions, he did not, but thanks for the laugh. :p
 
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quatona

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Hardly takes a psychic to see your intentions.

Well, you are wrong. I say this because I am world´s leading expert when it comes to my intentions - and you are not.

Again, Why do you want to turn us against God?
Again, I don´t, and you won´t find anything in my posts that indicates that this is my intention.
Why are you so angry with a mythical God you don't even believe exists?
I am not, and you will have a hard time finding even one quote of me that implies that I am.

Now, stop lying about me. Please.

Do you feel this way about Snow White? Hansel and Gretel?
Yes, that´s a good comparison.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Yes, that´s a good comparison.

Then you do hate Snow White and such too. Now we're getting somewhere.

Why would you hate something that isn't real? If you are still in denial, take some of that me time I think I mentioned and use it wisely by looking up the definition of "imply", that may or may not open your eyes.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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what I am saying is that Frank will know some things, I will know others, together we will have a much clearer picture of truth. But, with Frank alone, we simply can't be sure.
It's true that where Frank and the autobiography agree we can be a little more confident that they're describing the author correctly, but otherwise we have no particular reason (as the analogy stands) to believe either.
Here is an example, in the analogy Frank has lived next to me for 2 years. But in the autobiography I talk about things that happened long before I ever met Frank. What then if Frank says, when she was young she broke her leg riding a horse. would he really know that? of course not, that was before we met. However, if Frank says, a year ago, their son died. And the autobiography tells about our son who died a year ago, then Frank collaborates the book, right? Likewise, if the Bible is the claimed authority in this case, that is the autobiography and Frank (the believer) contradicts the story or proclaims to know something not in the book, why wouldn't we think that is delusion? However, if Frank confirms what is in the book, wouldn't that add credibility to the story?
As I say above, where they both agree we can have greater confidence, but as I also said, the Bible is biographies with claims of divine inspiration. We can have no more confidence in them than we can in Frank if he says she'd told him that she broke her leg riding a horse when young. Both would be hearsay claims.
 
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razzelflabben

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It's true that where Frank and the autobiography agree we can be a little more confident that they're describing the author correctly, but otherwise we have no particular reason (as the analogy stands) to believe either.
in the analogy I'm not sure why we would need to form a belief, but I'm guessing that most people would....but that is part of the problem, beliefs can be based on something or nothing at all. Thus, the root of the problem.
As I say above, where they both agree we can have greater confidence, but as I also said, the Bible is biographies with claims of divine inspiration. We can have no more confidence in them than we can in Frank if he says she'd told him that she broke her leg riding a horse when young. Both would be hearsay claims.
well, I would disagree, but let me ask you this, what do you think about the Quaran when it comes to knowing what Islam is suppose to be? Do you base your ideas and belief of Islam on the Islamist you talk to?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... what do you think about the Quaran when it comes to knowing what Islam is suppose to be? Do you base your ideas and belief of Islam on the Islamist you talk to?
The Quran is effectively the Muslim bible, the word of God. I base my limited understanding of Islam on what I know of how Muslims and Muslim scholars interpret the Quran in theology and in practice. I find its supernatural claims no more credible than those of other religions.
 
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Ronald

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what would make you think that financial prosperity is evidence of anything at all about God? much less knowledge and achievements? Where are you getting these things are a measure of faith in God? Let me see, another way to word the same question... what is your source for these things being from faith in God?

Historical evidence of Israel as God's chosen nation and individuals like Soloman prospered abundantly. He was also one of the wisest men ever. Job prospered greatly, then it was all taken away and then given back to him. Blessings were shown to Israel and at times when they went astray, punishment, where everything including their freedom was taken away. They were given wisdom, they excelled in every aspect of life, far beyond their surrounding kingdoms around them. Daniel was an example of God's blessings, wisdom, knowledge and super-natural abilities as well. Joseph was also given prosperity. God promised them the land of milk and honey, which represented a land that would be fruitful and satisfying in every way. Jesus even says that He wants us to live life in the full. This does not imply any prosperity doctrine, or that rich people are blessed by God. Sometimes wealth can be your god. It is the godly man, who puts God first, and is not in love with money or things that lives life in the full. Everything that is good comes from God. So if you happen to go through a country or village where people just aren't living a good life, yes that points very probable lack of the true God in their lives. Wow, did you miss all that or have you even studied the Bible?

this is why scripture says nothing about morality and a lot about justice because society does not determine justice.

What? You are saying that the Bible does not teach about right and wrong or virtuous behavior? Again, have you read the Bible? Even if you didn't, The Ten Commandments teach us about morality.
 
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Dan Bert

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It is written man will be judged according to his works....and at other places man will rewarded according to his works. Judgment day is the final judgment...Not the only judgment we undergo. We are undergoing judgments (Experiencing good and evil consequences) all the time because the law is always active. Tasting the fruits is a form of testing...and it is experiencing the result of the law...those guilty of Gluttony for example over time if they do not repent they will experience obesity, blood problems, Cardio Vascular problems, diseases like diabetes,cancers etc. This is a sin that cannot hidden for long it shows up in the flesh what happens to those who do not repent of it. Experiencing the consequences of Gluttony is tasting the word of God on Gluttony. As we can see we can trust the word of God on Gluttony as the wages of sin is death and demonstrated those who live in Gluttony. Other sins some are not obvious while others can be hidden from other men, but not their consequences.

Gideon did a double blind test with God...to make sure the calling he was receiving was from God. God does not prevent us from proving Him. That is one the most important tools we have to determine what is from God or not. Why? Because God never fails to keep His promises. So if we live the conditions upon which the promises are predicated on we will receive...for example to receive, to find and to have open..we must first in faith,,,,,Ask, seek and knock. If we do these things God will keep His promises....concerning asking, seeking and knocking. He never fails.

dan


but isn't that a form of testing? Or am I missing something?
 
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razzelflabben

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The Quran is effectively the Muslim bible, the word of God. I base my limited understanding of Islam on what I know of how Muslims and Muslim scholars interpret the Quran in theology and in practice. I find its supernatural claims no more credible than those of other religions.
But, the point I was making is that you accept the Quran as the authority on Allah. Yet you have been trying to argue that the Bible is not the authority on God. What I am asking you is why the double standard?
 
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razzelflabben

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Historical evidence of Israel as God's chosen nation and individuals like Soloman prospered abundantly. He was also one of the wisest men ever. Job prospered greatly, then it was all taken away and then given back to him. Blessings were shown to Israel and at times when they went astray, punishment, where everything including their freedom was taken away. They were given wisdom, they excelled in every aspect of life, far beyond their surrounding kingdoms around them. Daniel was an example of God's blessings, wisdom, knowledge and super-natural abilities as well. Joseph was also given prosperity. God promised them the land of milk and honey, which represented a land that would be fruitful and satisfying in every way. Jesus even says that He wants us to live life in the full. This does not imply any prosperity doctrine, or that rich people are blessed by God. Sometimes wealth can be your god. It is the godly man, who puts God first, and is not in love with money or things that lives life in the full. Everything that is good comes from God. So if you happen to go through a country or village where people just aren't living a good life, yes that points very probable lack of the true God in their lives. Wow, did you miss all that or have you even studied the Bible?
so, how do you know your ideas are truth about God or delusion based on assumptions you are making? ;)
What? You are saying that the Bible does not teach about right and wrong or virtuous behavior? Again, have you read the Bible? Even if you didn't, The Ten Commandments teach us about morality.
As I have repeatedly said, the Bible does NOT equate God with morality since morality is a fluid thing based on social constructs. It does however teach justice not only for God, but a call to justice for HIs followers. In fact, before when I brought this up I issued a challenge to find one single mention of morality in scripture than look for Justice. And no, the 10 commandments are the law, not morality. IOW's they needed the law to show them where their morality was failing. In fact, that is the purpose of the law according to scripture. To show where we as a society have it wrong. Morality remember is a social construct.
 
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razzelflabben

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No, I don´t.
Just stop telling me what my feelings are.
Address the posts I wrote and the arguments I gave, and stop slandering me.
Thank you.
now, now, now, your own confession was that he was interpreting your posts as you presented them, now you are trying to claim otherwise. This must be some of the reason you seem to have problems with some of us on this thread.
 
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razzelflabben

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Gideon did a double blind test with God...to make sure the calling he was receiving was from God. God does not prevent us from proving Him. That is one the most important tools we have to determine what is from God or not. Why? Because God never fails to keep His promises. So if we live the conditions upon which the promises are predicated on we will receive...for example to receive, to find and to have open..we must first in faith,,,,,Ask, seek and knock. If we do these things God will keep His promises....concerning asking, seeking and knocking. He never fails.

dan
yep to this part, the first part seems a bit off topic at least as I am reading and understanding your post.
 
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