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Ex-married people say the same about marriage...
And none of them study successful marriages...
What IS a Girl to DO??
Arsenios
If you do not understand what I said and have to resort to semantics when I have made myself definitively clear...I do indeed have no choice but to give up on you.That's not the context you're using...because nothing about that definition suggests a being that doesn't experience time in the exact same way as you and I.
Do you want to try again? Or just give up now?
If you do not understand what I said and have to resort to semantics when I have made myself definitively clear...I do indeed have no choice but to give up on you.
I gave you the definition: "without beginning or end."This is an issue of clarity...an issue of being correctly understood...and you want to avoid "semantics"?
If I existed forever...right from the beginning of time all the way up till now, and from this moment on into the future forever or until time as we know ends....I would perfectly fit your definition of "timeless". I wouldn't know the future or anything that's going to happen though...because it hasn't happened yet. I would be experiencing time exactly as I do now.
Now is that what you mean by "timeless" when you speak of god? Or are you speaking of an entirely different concept? It's your concept Scott....being clear about the details is rather important if you want to be understood.
I gave you the definition: "without beginning or end."
The only evidence you will find on this eminently empirical approach will be found only within your SELF...
So I can understand your hesitation...
But so will any other evidence - If you do NOT experience it, how can you believe it?
Arsenios
But because your distinction between what is "carnal" and what is "spiritual" is based on "because I say so"... there is no way to determine any "not carnally attributable" encounters.Yes - ALL life-changing encounters not carnally attributable...
Arsenios
Yes prayer works when it is in accordance to the will of God. Though God will at time gives according to our will, it is the lesser will of God that is fulfilled.Prayer works.
As this also explains why prayer does not work, it is quite useless as an explanation, wouldn't you think?Yes prayer works when it is in accordance to the will of God. Though God will at time gives according to our will, it is the lesser will of God that is fulfilled.
Prayer is for communication not a vehicle for getting what one wants. David said I shall not want, He maketh me to lie down in green pastures and leadeth me by the still waters. Need come from our Spirit and wants from our ego. Which one do you think God answers. Needs? or Wants?
bert12
By definition, the timeless has no tale, timeline, imagination, or answers, since those are time-like.Perhaps the only way it would make sense to you, is if you pretend you are a timeless god and then imagine your own tale - then ask yourself, "If you are timeless, and the tale has a timeline, how is that possible?"
My guess is, your answer would be, "I am timeless, but my tale has a timeline - what's the problem?"
One could assume different "time-like" structures.By definition, the timeless has no tale, timeline, imagination, or answers, since those are time-like.
If you can make a reasoned argument how any of that could make sense, do so; but philosophy isn't about making up or asserting any old logically incoherent or inconsistent nonsense without a reasoned argument.
It is disappointing; perhaps it's because reasoned argument can lead to a change of views and/or beliefs... ?I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that trying to argue with most of the Christians here is exactly like experiencing Monty Python's Argument Clinic sketch in real life.
Agreed; messing around with timelines is a well-established literary technique.One could assume different "time-like" structures.
A tale is not bound to the timeline of the author, an author is not bound to the timeline of his tale.
Yes; there seems to be the same temptation with 'timeless' (the absence of time) as there is with 'nothing' (i.e. the absence of anything rather than 'empty' spacetime); the temptation to represent them with something they are not - e.g. a 'higher' timestream, and a (or the) void, respectively.But the author is not "timeless". He exists in his own timeline. He must exist in an own timeline... because else the concept of "author" becomes meaningless.
Yes, there is an equivalent concept in cosmology, represented by 'closed' universe models such as the quantum-mechanical Hartle-Hawking No-Boundary Proposal, where the universe is closed and self-contained, needing no 'external' cause, it just is. In this model, time is imaginary (in the mathematical sense, not a figment!), and the apparent beginning and flow of time that we experience are a consequence of our viewpoint within this cosmology. There's some doubt whether this particular model is valid, but there are a number of variations on the theme, none of which require initial causation or creation.I've always said that the only theistic system that makes sense in the "timeless" or "outside of time" regard is pantheism... everything just "existing", both what is usually called "creation" and "creator". But of course, without time, both concepts do not have any meaning anymore... that might be the reason why Christians do like my conclusion.
I think you meant "no".
do you have any actual evidence that any god exists or not?
Yes - ALL life-changing encounters not carnally attributable...
It is disappointing; perhaps it's because reasoned argument can lead to a change of views and/or beliefs... ?
There have been studies of prayer though...and the results show it doesn't work.
Of course those are "carnal" aka real results...not imaginary results...so I can already guess how you're going to respond to that.
IMO it is healthy to recognize the inherent bias in personal experiences,
without reliable external verification.
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