How does once saved always saved work exacly ?

[RichardT]

What if I were to lose my faith ? Would that mean that I was never actually saved ? I doubt that.... I gave my heart to Jesus..

 

[MrJim]

What if I were to lose my faith ? Would that mean that I was never actually saved ? I doubt that.... I gave my heart to Jesus..

The OSAS position-also referred to as the "P" in TULIP for "Perseverance of the Saints" states simply that if you are indeed the chosen elect of God you cannot become unelect. Now there are those that aren't "calvinists" that believe in OSAS and they will quote passages from scripture that will show that God will save you to the end.

Now you said about losing your faith. The OSAS'ers will say indeed that if you would turn away to never return to God then you were never saved in the first place-that whatever "faith" you showed was false.

I used to believe in the OSAS position but no longer.

 

[tapero]

What if I were to lose my faith ? Would that mean that I was never actually saved ? I doubt that.... I gave my heart to Jesus..

You can never lose your salvation.

Ephesians 1:13-15

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I am in a valley, and my faith isn't as strong as it once was; but I have no doubts about my salvation because the word says I am saved.

Tapero..

 

[FallenDaughter]

I to have always wondered this. I grew up in a church that taught you could lose your salvation.

 

[Just4Jesus]

You can never lose your salvation.

Ephesians 1:13-15

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I am in a valley, and my faith isn't as strong as it once was; but I have no doubts about my salvation because the word says I am saved.

Tapero..

I agree, but I do want to say that I believe the only way one can loose their salvation is if they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. The bible says that is a sin that you can never be forgiven for. But for someone to get to the point to speak against the Holy Spirit, they probably were not ever saved.

 

[tapero]

I agree, but I do want to say that I believe the only way one can loose their salvation is if they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. The bible says that is a sin that you can never be forgiven for. But for someone to get to the point to speak against the Holy Spirit, they probably were not ever saved.

Hi, thanks for your words. Since there is one unpardonable sin, it has to be the sin of unbelief. Now we all struggle with believing in our walk, but the one that committs the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, has turned down the gift forever. This then doesn't happen until the end of their lives and they haven't beleived. We won't know that about them, because one could be saved in the last moments of their lives and many are. Take care, Tapero

 

[Faulty]

John 10:28-30 say "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

This is one of the verses on which I base my 'once saved, always saved' line of thinking. Once in the Father's hand I can never perish and no man (including me) can remove me from His hand.

 

[timbrown]

Hello:

I don't have much time to enter this, so excuse my brevity, I'm leaving for work soon.

The early church fathers (I'm not talking Roman Catholic) made statements in their writings about perserverance and fruit bearing.

Throughout history, this has been the case. On the one hand you had those such as the arminians and the calvinists. Methodism and then the Puritans, for example.

Only recently have we come up with this "pray a prayer and you are in regardless" theology. Easy believism. I've had people come up to me and tell me they KNOW I was a Christian years ago. I beg to differ. I didn't even really understand the gospel, I just had a ton of head knowlege. But my life was not changed, and I KNEW something was drastically wrong. I just didnt't know what.

John said that "they left us because they were not of us..." That means leaving the faith, not just changing a church. It has to do with the context of 1 John.

Sorry to cut this short, but I've gotta leave. Maybe more later...

Tim

 

[KATHXOYMENOC]

Once saved, always saved works pretty well ... until you really read the New Testament and read the writings of the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers. Then such a doctrine starts to become somewhat fuzzy and tenuous, and may even begin to appear to be false.

 

[timbrown]

ok, I have a bit more time now.

As I mentioned this morning, the earlier differing views were based on Arminian theology and Calvinistic theology.

Only in the last century (that I am aware of) did we begin to have the "easy belief" hybrid, which teaches "pray the prayer, walk the isle, never doubt, and if you stray and do whatever you want, you are still a genuine convert."

I must apologize for not having the reference immediately handy, but the writings of the apostolic fathers are contrary to this. In fact, they are very hard lined on genuine conversion leading to a changed life... which continues to bear fruit. I will try to find this for you, I owe you the reference.

Jesus said plainly that "The way is narrow and few will find it". (Matt 7:14). "Christianity" has attempted to broaden that gate. Thus, many have been decieved into thinking that they have been "saved" when they have only been innoculated!

The apostle John says in 1 John that "whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God". Well, "Believes" is in the present tense. It's ongoing. Continuance. True faith endures. Again, John says "Whoever is born of God will not sin". That means a continual practice of sin. If someone says they are a believer and yet shows no sorrow or repentance, that is a good reason to doubt their profession.

Do Christians stumble? Of course. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". In other words, if we are the ones confessing, He is the one cleansing. But as Jesus said "A bad tree cannot bear good fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit". We are not called to judge others...but we most certainly should look for fruit. "Test the spirits". If someone says they are a believer and lives like a non-believer, you are not doing them a favor by telling them to look back at a time when they "prayed a prayer" and stop doubting. Paul said "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith..."

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

All your sins, past present and future were on that cross. If you are a believer, all your sins, past present and future are attoned for and God sees in you the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. BUT if you have reallly been born again, you will show signs of that new life; conviction of sin, a desire to know God and live for Him, a love for His word...to know it and OBEY it.

"The one who endures to the end shall be saved". Yes. Absolutely. Endurance is the indicator of true faith! We are saved, we are being saved (sanctification) and we shall be saved (completely transformed) when we see Him. The one who doesn't perservere never started...

Or, as Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have said it, they never backslided because they never slid forward!

Tim

 

[timbrown]

What if I were to lose my faith ? Would that mean that I was never actually saved ? I doubt that.... I gave my heart to Jesus..

Do you see an ongoing love for Christ? A desire to obey and grow?

Is it more important for you to conform to what Jesus CHrist is like than to be popular?

Are you leaning on personal "Goodness" to get into heaven?

Unsaved people don't have a love for Jesus, nor do they desire to obey Him and grow. Unsaved people don't care about being "holy". They also depend on their own resources to save them.

If the positive things are true of you, then you have reason to believe you are! I have a number of books on this subject and they tend to say the same thing at least once...."If you are concerned about your state before God, you have reason to have hope!"

Again, unsaved people generally don't care about such things.

Read phil 1:6 == "...He that began a good work in you shall continue to perform it till the day of Jesus Christ". If God started it, He wil finish it!

 

[JContinuum]

You can never lose your salvation.

Ephesians 1:13-15

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I am in a valley, and my faith isn't as strong as it once was; but I have no doubts about my salvation because the word says I am saved.

Tapero..

Interesting, so interpret this scripture please

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Hebrews 10:26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people. 30 For we know the one who said, "I will take vengeance. I will repay those who deserve it." He also said, "The Lord will judge his own people." 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/FONT]

 

[KATHXOYMENOC]

Look up how Paul uses the Greek word adokimos, and every place he uses it.

 

[timbrown]

Interesting, so interpret this scripture please

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Hebrews 10:26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people. 30 For we know the one who said, "I will take vengeance. I will repay those who deserve it." He also said, "The Lord will judge his own people." 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/FONT]

Sure!

See also Hebrews 12. where it warns us to make sure that "no one misses the grace of God". There are "almost Christians" out there. And again, this is what Paul was adressing when he said "Examine yourselves...."

Hebrews chapter 10 is actually a warning very similar to that of the one in chapter 6. This is the unpardonable sin. To reject the light that one is given, as the pharisees were doing when Christ mentioned the unpardonable sin. In Hebrews 6, the words such as "taste" mean to "sample". You see outworkings of God, but have not yet embraced them.

"trampling on the Son of God" would be tentamount to what is spoken of in reference to the unconverted Jews in Hebrews 6. Of course, there are those who say this is a warning to Christians. But if that IS the case, then if you lose it, it is impossible to be resaved for "It is impossible...". This is the same word, the same form, etc., as where it states in Hebrews 11 that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Some want the word "impossible" in Heb 6 to mean "difficult". Then that would also be true for Hebrews 11. Try it -- "without faith it is difficult to please God." No, it is impossible. That's what it says. And that is what Hebrews 6 says. There comes a point were someone becomes sufficiently hardened and God ratifies their decision.

This chapter (10) is in agreement with what I have said earlier. 1 John again states that a true believer will not (continue in) sin. This says clearly that one who does will fall under the eternal judgement of God. "If we deliberately keep on sinning..." then we demonstrate we are NOT ta child of God according to John. For
"3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."



Again, notice the words "keeps on sinning".


One rule of hermeneutics that I learned is that you do not allow an obscure verse overule a clear one. You let scripture interpret itself and let the less clear verses be interpreted in light of the more obvious ones.

Remember too that this is speaking to the Hebrews. The book even starts out as an apologetic about who Christ is. As it progresses, they are being commanded to embrace the new covenant and not fall back into Judaism.

We tend to read everything in the N.T. as if it is all written to believers while that is not necessarily the case.

We also tend to view salvation as an "addition" rather than a "transformation". You are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). If you are a butterfly, you will not crawl like a caterpillar although you may walk around once in a while.
Eventually you will get frustrated with "walking" and fly.

Does this teach "do what you want, because you will go to heaven anyway"? Read it again. It does not. When you are really born of God, your desires are changed.

Again, from 1 John 3..."...because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Again, remember that Hebrews was written, at least in part, to unconverted Jews who were in danger of turning back. For them, if they did so, there would be no remedy as is stated in Chapters 6, 10 and 12, et.al.

 

[JContinuum]

Tim

Hebrews 10 talks about jews that accepted Christ, but because of judism peer preasure they fell back into judism. Paul warned them if they reject the light (Jesus Crucified) then there is no more sacrifice for sin. Hebrews was written for the jews, but yet it is also given to gentiles s a warning that if they too reject Jesus as saviour after being once saved, then they too are lost. Actually In Christianity there are no jews or gentiles, all are one as equals and you are suppose to read hebrews as it applies to your christian heart. This goes for any other new testament book. Hebrews 6 or 10 has nothing to with blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[KleinerApfel]

I gave my heart to Jesus..

Well if that is true, how do you suppose you might ever be able to get it back?! His grip is firm!

That's how it works.

God bless, love Sue