How does it feel?

[StormeTorque]

And, just while we're on this topic, do you believe all religions are just about a reward? Or does Christianity differ in anyway? Just my own curiosity.

I think that Christianity does seem to put more of an emphasis upon a "personal relationship with Christ" compared with other religions. But I guess that a lot of people, Christians included, see following their religion as a way of avoiding God's wrath instead of following guidelines beneficial to our wellbeing and the human race as a whole.

Again, I'm curious, do you believe in Christ as an historical figure, that actually existed or do you see it more as myth?

I think that Christ probably did exist as an actual person, but I doubt he did the miraculous things that the Gospels say he did. I don't believe in goblins, ghosts, evil spirits or anything else that is supernatural, and I don't think it would take anything less than some kind of personal revelation to change my opinion. I'm open minded regarding Christianity's claims, but I would need to see some kind of evidence that the claims stated are true.

 

[StormeTorque]

Why don't you want to live forever? It's probably because of all the pain and so on in this world. But if you get rid of that then it would be pretty cool to do so. Which is what it will be like in heaven.

Hmmm- its hard to answer why. On one hand I would like there to be another chance for those to enjoy life who have experienced nothing like misery, such as the victims of famine/abuse around the world. However, for myself, I can't really imagine a place of perpetual bliss - I'm of the opinion that we need to experience bad times as well as good times. This may sound like a contradiction to what I said before, but when I say bad times I do not mean unbearable misery, but just something to make the good times a bit better. Like having a warm bath after living in a dirty, freezing house for a week would feel far better than having a warm bath every day. I think that the "good" things would gradually lose their pleasure if we experienced them every day for all eternity.

 

[Jer]

But that's because of the wrongness in the world that makes us become used to them, and if it was gone then we'd enjoy them fully all the time. And even more fully than here, because everything that happens down here is not the full experience.

Why believe in Christianity at all? Why not just do good? From what you're saying there is no difference at all.
I am quite happy doing what I am doing!

No, gueninly I am wanting to know, there seems to be no difference to me whatsoever.

Please explain this comment

Pretty much the opposite to Tangnefedd's post, that both have problems. I totally disagree with blind faith, but I also totally disagree with a complete wish washy faith that has no meat to it and is completely wreaking the church in the UK at the moment.

 

[Tangnefedd]

Pretty much the opposite to Tangnefedd's post, that both have problems. I totally disagree with blind faith, but I also totally disagree with a complete wish washy faith that has no meat to it and is completely wreaking the church in the UK at the moment.

Why does faith have to be anything more than suits each individual? If people are happy being fundies, that is fine as long as they are not forcing it on others. The liberal position of tolerance is fine too. It is not for us to judge another's spirituality, however much we might disgree with their point of view. I am grateful I live in the UK where faith is a matter fo reach individual to decide, rather than being politicised as it is becoming in the US. for instance.

 

[Jer]

Because it clearly states in the bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That is not for an individual to accept or disagree with, it's a fact. But then you'll say that it's the interpretation. Not so, it's stated quite clearly, by Jesus Himself many times. So either you accept the bible or you "pick and mix" what you like, which can either lead to the problem of some people choosing the "bad" bits, or others having a faith that is non-existant in the sense of christianity according to the bible. And just because you follow what the bible says it doesn't mean you're judging others spirituality, in fact you're doing the opposite. The only way to heaven is by grace, not works. Read Romans, if you can make yourself believe Paul,

 

[Joy]

Because it clearly states in the bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That is not for an individual to accept or disagree with, it's a fact. But then you'll say that it's the interpretation. Not so, it's stated quite clearly, by Jesus Himself many times. So either you accept the bible or you "pick and mix" what you like, which can either lead to the problem of some people choosing the "bad" bits, or others having a faith that is non-existant in the sense of christianity according to the bible. And just because you follow what the bible says it doesn't mean you're judging others spirituality, in fact you're doing the opposite. The only way to heaven is by grace, not works. Read Romans, if you can make yourself believe Paul,

Amen Jer

 

[Tangnefedd]

Not a subject on which we are going to agree, I certainly don't believe or agree with everything in the Bible, you do Jer, so we must leave it there, I have nothing more to say on this thread.

 

[Jer]

I wasn't trying to make you believe, but I was just wondering why consider yourself a christian when you are just accepting the bits that say act well? Why not a humanist, because IMO it sounds like you are one. (Not wanting to be judgemental, just was wondering).

 

[steverock]

Because it clearly states in the bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That is not for an individual to accept or disagree with, it's a fact. But then you'll say that it's the interpretation. Not so, it's stated quite clearly, by Jesus Himself many times. So either you accept the bible or you "pick and mix" what you like, which can either lead to the problem of some people choosing the "bad" bits, or others having a faith that is non-existant in the sense of christianity according to the bible. And just because you follow what the bible says it doesn't mean you're judging others spirituality, in fact you're doing the opposite. The only way to heaven is by grace, not works. Read Romans, if you can make yourself believe Paul,

spot on!

 

[oworm]

Because it clearly states in the bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That is not for an individual to accept or disagree with, it's a fact. But then you'll say that it's the interpretation. Not so, it's stated quite clearly, by Jesus Himself many times. So either you accept the bible or you "pick and mix" what you like, which can either lead to the problem of some people choosing the "bad" bits, or others having a faith that is non-existant in the sense of christianity according to the bible. And just because you follow what the bible says it doesn't mean you're judging others spirituality, in fact you're doing the opposite. The only way to heaven is by grace, not works. Read Romans, if you can make yourself believe Paul,

Amen to that my young brother.You are spiritually wise beyond your years

 

[Buttermilk]

I also totally disagree with a complete wish washy faith that has no meat to it and is completely wreaking the church in the UK at the moment.

Liberals do NOT have a wishy washy faith, in fact it is the exact oposite. I see more expression/demonstration of faith from Liberals I know than from Fundamentalists/Conservatives

 

[Jer]

I don't want to get into a fight on the board or anything, I just cannot see how the two things can go together and just want to see how it goes. The bible clearly states something. Either you believe it, or just pick and mix, which as you said is exactly about more expression and so on. But it's not according to what is said in the bible, so why count yourself a christian? To use another kinda random analogy, If I said I liked such a bit from Labour, and another bit here and another bit there from them, but disagreed with lots of other bits but the bits I liked were all Lim Dem policies then wouldn't I be a Lib Dem? Humanism is all about personal expression of what you believe is right, which is what a lot of liberal christians believe. If you want PM me about it.

 

[Buttermilk]

I don't want to get into a fight on the board or anything

Don't worry my liberal beliefs would not allow me to get into a fight with you even if I had wanted to

I just cannot see how the two things can go together and just want to see how it goes. The bible clearly states something. Either you believe it, or just pick and mix, which as you said is exactly about more expression and so on. But it's not according to what is said in the bible, so why count yourself a christian? To use another kinda random analogy, If I said I liked such a bit from Labour, and another bit here and another bit there from them, but disagreed with lots of other bits but the bits I liked were all Lim Dem policies then wouldn't I be a Lib Dem? Humanism is all about personal expression of what you believe is right, which is what a lot of liberal christians believe. If you want PM me about it.

Now my views may not be as radical as Tangnefedd, but she is fully entitled to her views (that's the Liberal in me again allowing her to shape her spirituality as she sees fit) Tangnefedd's relationship with God is just that - hers!!!, and we have no right to say whether it is right or wrong, only God can tell her that

I assume Jer you take the whole Bible literally including the Creation Stories - that is your right and I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade you otherwise; many including myself don't however see these stories as literal, and that does not make us any less of a Christian than you are Jer

 

[ahab]

Hi ScottishJohn,

If we dislike the fact that sexuality is so often an issue when the church is discussed then surely the blame lies squarely with the Church for making such a disproportionate issue of sexuality.

Ah but firstly this law is from the government not the church or the other religions quoted so my point is that the blame lies not with the church because it’s the media and the secular making the sexual issue disproportionate.

If you search BBC news for 'Church' there are 6 out of 30 stories which have the issue of Homosexuality and the Church in their headlines in the first three pages, this is because of the focus the Church has placed on the issue and not because of any agenda the media or liberals have.

I don't see many Islamic groups campaigning or arguing in the same way about homosexuality as many Christian demoninations and groups do. You are right that other agendas distract from the great commission, but those agendas lie WITHIN the church and not without, and blame can be placed on both sides of the liberal conservative divide within the church.

Ah but if the main issue was sexual we would have more on the position of Islam where in some countries homosexuals are executed, not the issue in the church.

Incidentally the Guardian recently reported on the letter of the Gobal South http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1644243,00.html and included a comment from Richard Kirker of LGCM. If the Guardian wanted a balanced view it should really have sought an alternative view from other Bishops as those in authority in the church instead of from one who isn’t in similar authority.

peace

 

[Jer]

Don't worry my liberal beliefs would not allow me to get into a fight with you even if I had wanted to




Now my views may not be as radical as Tangnefedd, but she is fully entitled to her views (that's the Liberal in me again allowing her to shape her spirituality as she sees fit) Tangnefedd's relationship with God is just that - hers!!!, and we have no right to say whether it is right or wrong, only God can tell her that

I assume Jer you take the whole Bible literally including the Creation Stories - that is your right and I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade you otherwise; many including myself don't however see these stories as literal, and that does not make us any less of a Christian than you are Jer

If you read the bible IT IS what He says (that it's not a personal choice to shape your spirituality). The problem is those bits are probably missed out by a number of people because they don't accept them because it's too extreme or something. Have a look at the passage someone mentioned earlier:

[BIBLE] 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. (Revelation 3)[/BIBLE]

Sounds like God is saying that He disproves of people who pick bits, and are neither a firm follower or not a follower. In fact not only disproves of, but is insulted by it. He will spit them out, pretty harsh words. It's an insult to His gift of grace, His son, who came to earth and died for us. And we turn round and tell Him that we don't need it, that we can make it on our own by our works. Imagine if you spent all you had on someone and they turn round and say they don't need and/ or want it, how would you feel? I don't want to come across as judgemental, my behaviour and actions are far from perfect, but I can't see God insulted by a picky faith. Tell me please, what is the difference between a liberal christian (generally, no one specifically, and not saying all do) who does good but that's it and a person who's not a christian that does good?

 

[Kehaar]

Tell me please, what is the difference between a liberal christian (generally, no one specifically, and not saying all do) who does good but that's it and a person who's not a christian that does good?

A belief in Christ.

 

[theFijian]

allowing her to shape her spirituality as she sees fit

This is the essence of liberal theology, it's anthropocentric and not theocentric. It's humanism with a deity tacked onto it.

I assume Jer you take the whole Bible literally including the Creation Stories

Why do people, especially 'liberals', assume that 'fundamentalists' read everything in scripture literally? Is this deliberate misrepresentation or just lazy thinking? Fundamentalists believe in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Origins theology is not one of them, save for "In the beginning, God..."

 

[theFijian]

A belief in Christ.

Which Christ though? The one who said "I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the father except through me." or the one who said "It doesn't really matter what you believe, you just work out your own faith, cos hey I am easy either way. 'All roads lead to Rome' and all that."

 

[Kehaar]

Which Christ though? The one who said "I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the father except through me." or the one who said "It doesn't really matter what you believe, you just work out your own faith, cos hey I am easy either way. 'All roads lead to Rome' and all that."

The former. I'm not aware of any other, personally speaking.

 

[steverock]

This is the essence of liberal theology, it's anthropocentric and not theocentric. It's humanism with a deity tacked onto it.

Why do people, especially 'liberals', assume that 'fundamentalists' read everything in scripture literally? Is this deliberate misrepresentation or just lazy thinking? Fundamentalists believe in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Origins theology is not one of them, save for "In the beginning, God..."

tbf though saying that Origins theoglogy is not a "fundamental" is still picking and choosing what you take from the Bible. what is fundamental about it is that God created, which is what i think you meant at the end. how he did it is up for debate but you cannot say that he may not have done it because it is a fundamental to our faith.

completely agree with you about liberal theology. i dislike it because, as you said (i think ), its a very "me-centred" way of doing christianity.
"i like this stuff about loving thy neighbour, but loving thy enemy doesnt work for me so ill ignore that". just an example but you see my point?

rather than looking at the Bible and seeing something that challenges something you like doing so you are going to have to make a commitment to try and stop an excuse is thought up like "its not relevant in the modern world". therefore, someone who thinks that way isnt going to grow very effectively because they arent living as God has said they should be living.