How does an Eternal Hell make sense if Christ's purpose was to end death/suffering?

Don't people already suffer without the love and assistance of Christ in their life?
Jesus did come to end suffering in the world. He preached the truth, sent forth his disciples to spread the truth, and for those for whom the truth resonates as the way, that truth, and the eternal life it contains, they are saved from death. While those for whom there is no call, no resonance of truth, they are dead in Christ. And it is that separation from God for eternity that shall be their Hell. It is the equilibrium of God's plan. Those who are saved and those who are not. It's God's plan it's our choice.

razzelflabben said:

sorry, there is another option, the one I believe, and in includes hell fire being eternal torment just like Rev. 20:10 says and you keep pretending it doesn't but refuse to show how it doesn't....and as to the accusations, we will leave the record speak for itself.

So, keep going, based on me specifically telling you what my beliefs are several times over, what are they? If you have been listening as you claim, what do I believe? Here's a hint, none of the 3 things above are accurate, it is something else and I have repeatedly told you what I believe. Money says you have no idea....

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I have no idea. I don't believe that you specifically told me what your beliefs are. I have patiently endured your abuse. You said that you believe that scripture says that hell fire is eternal torment. I don't know how this is different from believing that sinners go to eternal torment in hell fire. I'm getting real tired of putting up with your foul treatment of me. You don't just discuss, you attack. "Money says you have no idea" and so forth.

I will guess that you believe that hell fire is eternal torment. But you also said that you don't believe in eternal conscious torment. Logically, if you believe that hell fire is eternal torment, but you don't believe in eternal conscious torment, you must believe that sinners are eternally tormented, but they are not conscious during the torment. Is this correct?

Timothew said:

I have no idea. I don't believe that you specifically told me what your beliefs are.

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I tried to and another poster on this thread shares my views. So why, if I am the one who is a problem, do you not know what I believe even after I have told you?

I have patiently endured your abuse. You said that you believe that scripture says that hell fire is eternal torment. I don't know how this is different from believing that sinners go to eternal torment in hell fire. I'm getting real tired of putting up with your foul treatment of me. You don't just discuss, you attack. "Money says you have no idea" and so forth.

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so, are you ready and willing to listen? Or are you going to continue to slander me for calling you on your unwillingness to listen? Your choice....decide and let me know.

I will guess that you believe that hell fire is eternal torment. But you also said that you don't believe in eternal conscious torment. Logically, if you believe that hell fire is eternal torment, but you don't believe in eternal conscious torment, you must believe that sinners are eternally tormented, but they are not conscious during the torment. Is this correct?

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that would be incorrect, just like I told you repeatedly and you refuse to listen. Let me know if you are willing to listen and put aside your snippy remarks or not and we can try again.

razzelflabben said:

I tried to and another poster on this thread shares my views. So why, if I am the one who is a problem, do you not know what I believe even after I have told you? so, are you ready and willing to listen? Or are you going to continue to slander me for calling you on your unwillingness to listen? Your choice....decide and let me know.
that would be incorrect, just like I told you repeatedly and you refuse to listen. Let me know if you are willing to listen and put aside your snippy remarks or not and we can try again.

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I've been polite to you, and you haven't been polite at all to me. All the snippiness has come from you. I haven't slandered you and I do not wish to correspond with you any longer due to the way you behave on this forum.
Good bye.

Timothew said:

I've been polite to you, and you haven't been polite at all to me. All the snippiness has come from you. I haven't slandered you and I do not wish to correspond with you any longer due to the way you behave on this forum.
Good bye.

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so apparently you aren't ready to set aside your insults and listen...so sorry to hear that, we could have had a great conversation about what scripture does and does not say about the topic.

LittleLambofJesus said:

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.

According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."

The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

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Basanois also means to toss or to vex and was used in Matthew 14 to describe disciples boat being tossed by the waves. This relates to James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind." So basanois can mean to doubt and being double-minded versus having faith.

Some good food for thought.


-CryptoLutheran

razzelflabben said:

first let me ask you why we should throw out passages like Rev. 20:10 just to cling to our preferred interpretation of Matthew 10:28? If the Bible truly is the infallible word of the Living God, it will not contradict itself. Period, end of sentence. that means that either scripture is not the infallible word of the Living God (something I personally reject) or the answer is found somewhere within our understanding of the two passages.

That being said, let's look at at least one option. Matthew 10:28 what do we know about the passage 1. the point of the passage is to establish who we are to fear. It does this by telling us something about God. Namely that He is the one who determines life and death. 2. it is speaking of both the physical death (body) and the spiritual death (soul) and declaring that God alone has power over both. 3. the place referred to here is symbolic. In fact, this is a quote from the Thayer's Lexicon "Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction." 4. the word destroy according to the same Lexicon means and again I quote "

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
      
      
   2. render useless
      
      
   3. to kill
      
      
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
      
      
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
      
      
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   
   1. to lose"

Now, if we look at that definition carefully, we see that there are many possible meaning for the word destroy. For example, God could be saying, "I will put them out of the way entirely" putting something out of the way does not have to mean that it ceases to exist. It could also mean "I render them useless" which again, does not mean to cease to exist. Another possible "I will kill them" well we know that we are talking about a physical and spiritual death and since the flesh can die and no one seems to be arguing that, we also know from scripture that the spiritual death is separation from God. In fact, this understanding would be consistent with the totality of the passage in question. IOW's God is saying I can kill both the body (stop the breath of life I put in you) and soul (separate you for eternity from me) Thus this passage doesn't really tell us anything about the topic at hand other than that God Himself is the one who judges. But keep looking, it could also mean, "I declare that they must be put to death" again, death doesn't mean to cease to exist, rather it means the flesh returns to dust and the spirit returns to God and the soul is judged. Or it could be saying, "I devote or give over to eternal misery in hell" or "I cause them to perish, be lost, ruined, and destroyed" none of those meaning to cease to exist.

Now also note that in every one of those options, I quoted from the actual definition of the word in question, thus not making anything up like you are fond of doing when you enter passages like Gen. 1:1 because you think you can shame me somehow by being that stupid in your posts.

So, Matthew does not contradict Rev. at all, in fact they compliment each other even though they are not trying to relate the same information. I thought you said you knew how to study the bible and that you have been studying for 30 years now, yet you come here and your posts show that you have no clue what so ever how to understand scripture through study, why are you playing so dumb in your posts? You know, like the dumb act of Gen. 1:1 and now this dumb act as if you have studied the passages in question but fail to evidence that study? What do you think you gain from playing dumb on these boards?

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Malachi 4 is clear on the subject of which God will do to those who reject His way of life. They will be ashes!

Never to be resurrected or live again. They will be burned up. Their "torment" or punishment is the Lake of Fire....and that smoke goes up forever and ever. Pretty simple to understand.

A fiery hell where one burns while wide awake screaming and crying out was not a teaching of Christianity until about 1200 AD. The idea came from a book written by Dante called the Fiery Inferno where he shows 7 or 9 degrees of punishment and hell. A quick look at an encyclopedia will clear this up for you

Timothew said:

I've been polite to you, and you haven't been polite at all to me. All the snippiness has come from you. I haven't slandered you and I do not wish to correspond with you any longer due to the way you behave on this forum.
Good bye.

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Some folks here just dont understand what a discussion is sometimes and will get short because what they think comes into question.

It is funny how so many Christian views there are on some of the simple topics... Example: Most Christians believe all you have to do is give your life to Christ and not do anything such as "obey God" and you automatically go to heaven... But what is the flip side of that?

It is estimated that 100 billion people have lived and died over the past 6000 years. Most of which never heard of Jesus Christ. There are 4000 years of human history before Christ. So what happened to all those people. What about the ones that God told Israel to destroy? What about them? Are they all in hell? What about all those who died during the flood? How about all those in the world since Abraham that were not a part of Israel? Are all those in hell? Wouldn't you think that Satan is winning?

YSam44 said:

Malachi 4 is clear on the subject of which God will do to those who reject His way of life. They will be ashes!

Never to be resurrected or live again. They will be burned up. Their "torment" or punishment is the Lake of Fire....and that smoke goes up forever and ever. Pretty simple to understand.

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so you have no clue what I believe either nor what this post is discussing...how sad.

A fiery hell where one burns while wide awake screaming and crying out was not a teaching of Christianity until about 1200 AD. The idea came from a book written by Dante called the Fiery Inferno where he shows 7 or 9 degrees of punishment and hell. A quick look at an encyclopedia will clear this up for you

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not something I am confused on if you actually listen to what I am saying.

YSam44 said:

It is funny how so many Christian views there are on some of the simple topics... Example: Most Christians believe all you have to do is give your life to Christ and not do anything such as "obey God" and you automatically go to heaven... But what is the flip side of that?

It is estimated that 100 billion people have lived and died over the past 6000 years. Most of which never heard of Jesus Christ. There are 4000 years of human history before Christ. So what happened to all those people. What about the ones that God told Israel to destroy? What about them? Are they all in hell? What about all those who died during the flood? How about all those in the world since Abraham that were not a part of Israel? Are all those in hell? Wouldn't you think that Satan is winning?

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most of these questions have been answered, even answered with scripture...but apparently, your opinions are being questioned and it upsets you so much you have to ignore what people say to try to play some game like some other posters on this thread were doing....

The one question not answered already was "Wouldn't you think that Satan is winning?" Not if we understand what the game is. See, the game is whether or not death has been defeated, and it has, just because many will not live in that reality does not mean that death wasn't already defeated. In fact, the very fact that no one has to die the second death, is the victory according to scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Romans 8:3; I Corinthians 15:54; II Timothy 1:10; I John 3:8

(do you know why I usually post more than one passage of support for what I am saying? Because that 1. shows consistency of the claim 2. reveals a correct interpretation of any given passage, and 3. so that you can do your best to dismiss what is being said by showing a purposed ignoring of what I said and thus claim none of them say what I just said, iow's gives you some work to do in finding ways to twist what I said.)

LittleLambofJesus said:

One reason I like YLT is, that it uses those words in that Bible version.....

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:23
"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades.
An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead.

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.

According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."

The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

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Viren said:

Basanois also means to toss or to vex and was used in Matthew 14 to describe disciples boat being tossed by the waves. This relates to James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind." So basanois can mean to doubt and being double-minded versus having faith.

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It appears there are various forms of the greek word for "torment/s" in the NT. Would make for an interesting thread IMHO.......

929. basanismos bas-an-is-mos' from 928; torture:--torment.
931. basanos bas'-an-os perhaps remotely from the same as 939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture:--torment.
928. basanizo bas-an-id'-zo from 931; to torture:--pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
939. basis bas'-ece from baino (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

Luke 16:23
And in the hades, lifting up His eyes, existing in torments/basanoiV <931>, he is seeing Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in the Bosoms of him.

Reve 14:
10 And he is drinking out of the wine of the fury of the God, of the having been blended undiluted in the drink cup of the wrath of Him and he shall be being tormented in fire and sulfur in sight of messengers, holy, and in sight of the lambkin.
11 And the Smoke of the tormenting/basanismou <929> of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night.............

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

.............Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb.
What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves........

THE LAKE OF FIRE

I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it.

The teaching concerning the lake of fire does not appear anywhere in Scripture except in the book of Revelation where it is spoken of in the following passages: Rev. 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10; 20:13-15 and 21:8. This last passage definitely states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts.

Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion.


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