How does absolution work, exactly?

[seebs]

I've been pursuing some questions about how sin and absolution work, and I'd be interested in Catholic opinions. For best results, I'd suggest following up to the corresponding thread in "Soteriology", but if you'd rather post your version here, go ahead.

Basically, my question is this: I have often been told that various people (this is especially common with reference to gays) will go to Hell unless they admit that they are sinning and repent.

However, it seems to me that, if we are required to understand and admit to all of our sins to avoid Hell, that Heaven will have almost no one - probably not even the saints. This strikes me as unlikely.

So... under what circumstances do you think you can fail to repent of a sin, and still have a chance at heaven? Do you need to understand your sins? Do we get to repent of "all the things I haven't understood, or have gotten wrong", in the abstract, without necessarily changing our opinions or behaviors?

This probably fits into the "God is not mocked" thing... but I think there's a difference between constantly "repenting" and turning around and doing the same thing, and simply failing to understand something.

 

[VOW]

To Seebs:

INTENTION carries a lot of weight. When people start flinging barbs at the Catholic Church, Confession, Penance, Purgatory, and whatnot, the typical jab is, "Why is it that if you ate meat on Friday before Vatican 2, you were condemned to Hell, but now it's apparently okay?"

First, eating meat won't get you into Hell.

The sin of eating meat on Friday wasn't the meat itself. It was the INTENT. If you had gone out to lunch with your coworkers, and genuinely FORGOT it was Friday until after you were half-way through your hamburger, you weren't necessarily sinning. You were just careless. On the other hand, if you went out to lunch on Friday and everyone else was ordering a hamburger, and you just didn't WANT the Filet-o-fish, so you got a Big Mac instead, THERE you are showing intent. The second scenario was a big attack of self: I don't wanna follow the rules, I WANT A BURGER.

Confession isn't a "Get Out of Hell Free" card. It's a big mistake if people think that Catholics can sin all they want Monday through Friday, go to Confession on Saturday and get the slate wiped clean, and then show up in Church on Sunday, ready to sit at the Lord's table.

If you went out cheating on your wife Monday through Friday, apologized to her on Saturday, do you think she'd be in the mood for loving on Sunday?

The Catholic Church recognizes two types of sins: mortal and venial. The venial sins are the little white lies, the speeding on the freeway, and the nibbling on grapes in the supermarket. Mortal sins are the ones that jeopardize your relationship with God. Murder comes to mind, but there are others.

If you have a list of venial sins against your name when you die, you'll still get to heaven, but you'll have to be scrubbed clean so you will be fit to be in the presence of God.

Mortal sins, unless repented, cancel your ticket to heaven.

How do you repent? Well, you can talk to God one-to-one. Catholics are still capable of doing that, LOL. Nobody has ever said different.

But the Catholic Church understands human nature all too well. We do love to lie to ourselves. And we often do such a DANDY job of it, we actually believe the lies. By going to Confession, by actually TELLING someone what we did (or did not do), and the twisted, human, gullible reasons WHY, a lot of the whitewash disappears.

Confession is actually reconciliation. We admit to God that we've screwed up, and we acknowledge that the screwups are indeed our fault, and as such, we've violated the relationship that God wants us to have with him. Confession is more like a counseling session than giving a pizza order over the phone. The priest wants the details of the occasion of sin; then you have a little discussion of how to AVOID this.

If you are still wading around the in the BS, the priest might tell you to come back when you're ready to face yourself and God. If you indicate, though, that you regret those screwups, and you CRAVE the relationship with God, then the priest essentially REMINDS you of the forgiveness that Christ obtained for you on the Cross: "Your sins are forgiven, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Confession is GOOD for you. It's like constantly checking the map when you find yourself stuck in downtown LA during rush hour traffic. Sure, you can try to muddle along by yourself, but if you have a detailed map, you'll get to your destination in one piece, and in a reasonable amount of time.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Plus, I think it has more to do with being good for us, then fulfilling some checkbox in Heaven or something. I don't think God is checking off every sin that we committed, since Christ has already redeemed us.

 

[seebs]

Now, what happens if you're confused about a sin, and you are unable to comprehend or accept that it's a sin?

I am inclined to think that God probably allows these, as long as the *intent* is not "I'm going to deny this so I can keep doing it", but rather, "I don't understand this one, and I'm not convinced".

I'm not sure; I'm still trying to figure it out, but it seems to me that, if anyone can make it to heaven, we have to be allowed to be simply flat-out wrong on some of our beliefs, because we're naturally flawed.

 

[VOW]

To Seebs:

You've just made a remarkable case for Purgatory!

We're going to have a LOT of baggage with us when we leave this world. We're going to have the sins we've forgotten, the consequences of the sins we confessed, but never made amends for, and also for the sins that we did not even KNOWING they were sins.

And then there'll be those pesky sins that we talked ourselves out of admitting were truly sins.

There will be answers to all questions after this life. And when we are confronted with our sins, I think we'll do a lot of hemming and hawings, and drawing circles in the dust with our big toe.

But it is through the promise of Jesus that we will be forgiven and CLEANSED of all sin, and permitted to sit at the Banquet Table in Heaven.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[paulewog]

Repentance is a change of heart, not a verbal confession, right?

 

[Wolseley]

Only mortal sin will send you to hell. Venial sin will not.

For a sin to be mortal, three things must be present:

1. Serious matter in the sin committed (murder is serious; stealing a bubble gum card is not);

2. Recognition of the seriousness of the offense (you know what you're doing is wrong); and

3. Full consent of the will (you say to hell with it, I'm gonna do it anyway, because I want to).

If any of these three are missing, the sin is not mortal. It may be serious and you may know it's serious, but if someone forces you to do it, full consent of your will is lacking.

Maybe you think it's serious, and you do it anyway, but in reality, the sin is not all that serious---you only perceive it to be because of a psychological condition, or whatever. Not mortal.

Maybe the sin is serious, and you fully consent to committing it, but you don't recognize the seriousness of it---from your viewpoint, it's a simple, harmless "white lie" type of sin. This doesn't reduce the seriousness of the offense committed, but it does reduce your culpability in the matter of the sin, because you have not recognized just how serious the sin actually is.

You have to have all three conditions, and add to them ultimate unrepentance (you die in a state of sin where you have not repented from what you have done and received sacramental absolution) and this will send you to hell. If you lack any of the three conditions, or if you repent and seek absolution, you are not in a condemned state.

Keep in mind also that the Ultimate Judge is God, and, it's what He says, not the individual or the theologians, that determines where you spend eternity.

Does this help?

 

[seebs]

That helps immensely. I've been worried on behalf of a number of people; everyone who has ever lived, at one level, but at another level, for specific groups, like gays, people who supported slavery, and other groups of people who may have habitually done something that many or all of us believe now to be sinful.

I've been trying to get a better feeling for how this works, so as to distinguish my desire that these people somehow escape Hell, from the truth of God's will. However, I do get the impression that most people would agree that, even if you probably *could* have recognized a sin, you somehow don't "get" it, it's still forgivable, potentially.

I tend to believe in a much more merciful God than some people do. I certainly hope I'm right.

 

[Stormy]

Wolseley: Good, very Good.

 

[Wolseley]

Glad I could help. None of us, of course, know what's inside another person's heart or mind, and that's why I always try to avoid judging who's "going to hell" and who is not. I don't have access to all the information on that person to make a correct judgement. Only God does, and that's why I am perfectly content to leave all such matters up to Him.

 

[Caedmon]

Ok, if I commit one of these "bad" sins, and I fall on my knees before God, weeping, and am truly sorry, then I'm still going to Hell because I didn't go to confession?

Everytime I do something wrong, and I can understand that it was wrong, then I ask God to forgive me. Heck, I ask God to forgive me even if I'm not totally sure if it's a sin or not.(I'm so paranoid, I'll ask forgiveness for slipping on a banana peel, cuz it makes me feel shame, like when I feel guilty about something ) What does the Church say about this? Am I forgiven?

 

[isshinwhat]

truly sorry

Joe, that is the key. Godly sorrow, or perfect contrition, is sometimes difficult to muster. Oftentimes we are more upset at being caught doing something rather than for offending God. Even the desire to avoid Hell when you confess is selfish. What we should strive for is to confess out of love for God. What the ministry of Reconcilliation does is help us in our weakness. We are given a fountain of grace from Jesus, and through His minister, the priest, when we go to Confession.

Christians do not, as a matter of necessity, need Confession for salvation, only perfect contrition. A Catholic is bound to go to Confession at least once a year as a matter of Canon Law, though. Disobedience is a sin, and the Law is in place to give some the extra push they need to repent. The most important thing to remember is none of the Sacraments are technically necessary for salvation except for Baptism, either the Sacramental Baptism, or Baptism by Blood or Fire. The rest are there to help us.

I believe the only way not partaking in any particular Sacrament could d@mn you would be rejection of it while believing in the truth of it. That is why a Catholic not attending Mass or neglecting Confession is such a big deal. We have professed a belief in the things the Church teaches. If someone said, "I believe in Christ's Presence in the Eucharist, but I would rather watch football," then he has some serious issues in his faith that need to be addressed.

Cover me, guys. Did I say this right?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[seebs]

Interesting! This actually applies directly to one of the issues that I occasionally wrestle with. It's been a *long* time since I went to church, because I have never quite shaken the feeling that I'm a lot closer to God in private than I have ever been in a church. So, as I understand it, if I believed in the necessity for regular Masses (capitalization?), I would be committing a mortal sin, but as is, it's either not a sin (if my general sense of this is right) or a venial sin (if I'm wrong)...

Oddly, this puts me in the curious position that I may have an easier time achieving salvation while I have doubts about some specific points of doctrine than I would if I had resolved all of my doubts. On the other hand, I suspect it would count against me if I were to use that as an excuse to stop looking...

 

[isshinwhat]

If I had to wager, I would say it would be a venial sin. I don't think it is quite that relative as to negate its sinfulness altogether, though the culpability certainly is relative. I was raised very close to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and spent most of my childhood alone. My mother told me that God was my best friend, and to talk to Him as such. I have always been drawn to seclusion, but I appreciate the communion that Christians must have with eachother. I think you do, too, seebs, because I've seen the number of posts you have made here.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[seebs]

I like the informal structure a lot. I have never seen a church I was comfortable in. I think I like God a lot more than I like religion.

I was thinking about this, and sort of seeking guidance, and a guy came by my house handing out gospel pamphlets, the first plain-old-Christian to do this since we got here (we get occasional JW's or Mormons). Within, say, two days of when I started thinking about it.

He spent at least half of his time making it clear that going to church wasn't going to save me, having a relationship with God was going to save me. I have taken this, for now, as tacit approval of my solitary and informal approach.

I have found that I like, and get along well with, many Christians. However... I don't agree with many of the beliefs of specific churches, so I'm not sure I could find a church where I would consistently feel in communion with the rest of the congregation. The closest, in some ways, would be the UU's, but I'm not very comfortable with them either, because some of their congregations tend towards dogmatic rejection of dogma.

 

[VOW]

To Seebs:

I've heard the "I worship God on my own, in my own way," argument a lot. And I can understand it, truly. It was my perception of the hypocrisy that drove me away from the Protestant churches I attended as a child.

But here's the fact. Jesus CREATED His Church, before He left this world. In His all-knowing way, He understood that we humans are a social creature, that we must gather into groups, and naturally, the groups will find a leader. A leader is necessary, LOL, because when humans get in these groups, they argue and fight.

But Jesus left us His Church, and the Church leadership. We may not agree with it, we may feel things aren't right, we may have our reasons galore...

But we still must acknowledge that Jesus DID leave us His Church. And no matter HOW we feel about God, about worship, about salvation, if we believe in Jesus and His message, then we are to belong to His Church. Because the Body of Christ is ALL of the believers, together. A foot, an eyeball, a fingernail, none can exist apart from the Body.

I understand your sentiments, my friend. And I see you still have a ways to travel on your journey to God.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I like Wols description. Although I want to add that most people, like 2/3 I believe, will not go to Heaven.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by VOW
And no matter HOW we feel about God, about worship, about salvation, if we believe in Jesus and His message, then we are to belong to His Church. Because the Body of Christ is ALL of the believers, together. A foot, an eyeball, a fingernail, none can exist apart from the Body.

The question is, are we actually "apart" from the Body? It's a complicated question. But yeah, I have a ways to go. It's that first step that's the big one, I think.

 

[VOW]

To Souljah:

Now see, I'm of the OTHER school of thought. All we need is faith the size of a mustard seed to gain heaven. I think most people will be there. And we are going to have to recall, again and again and AGAIN, the workers who were hired at different times of the day. They ALL got paid the same.

I don't see how a merciful and just God would condemn 2/3 of His creation to eternal punishment. My personal opinion is that God comes off as a very stern, strict taskmaster, because people are such stupid, stubborn creatures. We want to be in social groups, yet we can't get along! The bigger the group, the tougher you gotta be!

But, as always, we'll just have to wait and see.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[seebs]

If nothing else, I'm pretty sure that Heaven will either be exceptionally crowded, or very very empty. I tend to favor crowded.

I'm always a little sad to realize that, when I finally have time to really get into these debates, and everyone else has the time... we'll know the answers, and there won't be any point.

There's and old joke about how, if there were a fork in the road labeled:

DISCUSSION ABOUT HEAVEN <-----
HEAVEN ---->

all the UU's would go to the left. I sometimes sympathize.