How does a sinner make the spiritual good choice towards God?

redleghunter

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Put more clearly, how does one dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
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Sabertooth

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Put more clearly, how does on dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?
It is a trait that God cultivates via His Holy Spirit.
  • The more we say yes, the closer we get to Him.
  • The more we say no, the farther we move from Him.
 
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Put more clearly, how does on dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
A preacher preaches the gospel; the Holy Spirit works through the preaching to bring conviction of sin; those under conviction start crying out to God for mercy; the Holy Spirit points them to Christ who died for them on the cross and shed His blood to cleanse them from sin; then He shows them the narrow gate and gives them instructions of how to go through it to genuine conversion.

Paul explains this by asking how can sinners hear unless there is a preacher, and how can a person preach unless he is called and empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Therefore it is the anointed Holy Ghost preacher who is instrumental in breaking through the sinners' obstinacy against God and pointing the way to Christ.
 
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Hammster

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5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

It looks to me like scripture describes us as alive or dead, sheep or goats, in the flesh or in the Spirit. There’s no middle ground. So if scripture states that those in the flesh cannot please God, how is it that they can put their trust in Christ? That would be pleasing to Him, would it not?
 
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It is a trait that God cultivates via His Holy Spirit.
  • The more we say yes, the closer we get to Him.
  • The more we say no, the farther we move from Him.
How does this work when the Holy Spirit is living right inside the Christian believer? How can we get any closer to the Spirit when He is within? And how can we get further away from Him when He continues to abide within? Doesn't make sense.

But I thought the OP was asking how does an unconverted sinner, on the road to hell become able to make a choice for Christ. I didn't think he was referring to converted believers who already have the Holy Spirit living in their recreated spirit.
 
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Sabertooth

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How does this work when the Holy Spirit is living right inside the Christian believer?
According to Jesus [John 15:1-8], we can/must choose to abide in Him AFTER getting saved. I believe that it is a daily choice.
 
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According to Jesus [John 15:1-8], we can/must choose to abide in Him AFTER getting saved. I believe that it is a daily choice.
Yep! Quite right.
 
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bling

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Put more clearly, how does on dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
When the Bible talks about a sinner being “dead” it does not mean the sinner cannot do stuff, even in this passage you have the sinner walking, lusting, and indulging. Now these unbeliever sinners can do nothing “righteous, honorable, worthy or noble”, but they can for selfish reasons: wimp out, give up and surrender to their enemy while their enemy is still their enemy. This is like the prodigal son coming to his senses and for selfish reasoning returning home (not some noble act on his part).

I’m not sure what you are trying to get across with Eph. 2:8


I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:


And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)



"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).


You call look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.


It is not “spiritual good” to be selfishly motivated.
 
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redleghunter

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It is a trait that God cultivates via His Holy Spirit.
  • The more we say yes, the closer we get to Him.
  • The more we say no, the farther we move from Him.
Shortened the point a bit here:



Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The "spiritual good choice" at the very least in these verses requires the act from God. We are dead and He makes us alive. This tells us there is no action or reaction towards God while we are dead in our trespasses.
 
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redleghunter

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But I thought the OP was asking how does an unconverted sinner, on the road to hell become able to make a choice for Christ. I didn't think he was referring to converted believers who already have the Holy Spirit living in their recreated spirit.
You got it right brother. This is about being dead in our trespasses and God making us alive in Christ.
 
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Tree of Life

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Put more clearly, how does on dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?

They must first be enabled by God. Three positions on this:
  1. Pelagianism - Sinners require no enabling. They are free to choose God as they are.
  2. Arminianism - God gives sinners prevenient (but not regenerating) grace which enables them to choose God and become regenerate.
  3. Calvinism - God regenerates sinners by giving them a new heart and enables them to freely choose God.
The problem with Pelagianism is that it denies original sin and contradicts much of Scripture. The problem with Arminianism (on this issue) is that they have invented the doctrine of Prevenient Grace out of thin air. There is no biblical support for it. And the problem with Calvinism is that it implies that we are not in control of our lives when we desperately want to be.
 
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redleghunter

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According to Jesus [John 15:1-8], we can/must choose to abide in Him AFTER getting saved. I believe that it is a daily choice.
Obviously not devoid of His Grace at every step of the way. After John 15:1-10 we have this:

John 15: NASB

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.
 
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They must first be enabled by God. Three positions on this:
  1. Pelagianism - Sinners require no enabling. They are free to choose God as they are.
  2. Arminianism - God gives sinners prevenient (but not regenerating) grace which enables them to choose God and become regenerate.
  3. Calvinism - God regenerates sinners by giving them a new heart and enables them to freely choose God.
The problem with Pelagianism is that it denies original sin and contradicts much of Scripture. The problem with Arminianism (on this issue) is that they have invented the doctrine of Prevenient Grace out of thin air. There is no biblical support for it. And the problem with Calvinism is that it implies that we are not in control of our lives when we desperately want to be.
The feature of those who subscribe to the Calvinist position is that they spend more time praying for lost souls that the Holy Spirit will work in them to bring conviction of sin and an understanding of the gospel so that they can make the right choice to be saved. They are the ones who lay hold of God in prayer and will not give up until sinners are saved.

The problem with the other two positions is that they believe that it is the sinner who makes the first step and God responds to their choice. This causes soul-winners to spend more time trying to persuade sinners by Bible bashing to come to Christ, than praying for the Holy Spirit's involvement. They see passionate and unceasing prayer as an optional extra and therefore their prayer is mainly, "Help the sinner to make the right choice so You can respond", rather than, as the Calvinist, "Work conviction into this sinner and break his obstinacy against You by the power of the Holy Spirit and open his heart to receive the gospel, because I know that all my preaching to him is vain unless you do it".
 
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Put more clearly, how does on dead in their sin and trespasses make the spiritual good choice towards God?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Grace
 
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redleghunter

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The feature of those who subscribe to the Calvinist position is that they spend more time praying for lost souls that the Holy Spirit will work in them to bring conviction of sin and an understanding of the gospel so that they can make the right choice to be saved. They are the ones who lay hold of God in prayer and will not give up until sinners are saved.

The problem with the other two positions is that they believe that it is the sinner who makes the first step and God responds to their choice. This causes soul-winners to spend more time trying to persuade sinners by Bible bashing to come to Christ, than praying for the Holy Spirit's involvement. They see passionate and unceasing prayer as an optional extra and therefore their prayer is mainly, "Help the sinner to make the right choice so You can respond", rather than, as the Calvinist, "Work conviction into this sinner and break his obstinacy against You by the power of the Holy Spirit and open his heart to receive the gospel, because I know that all my preaching to him is vain unless you do it".
You must be a pastor. :)
 
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redleghunter

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When the Bible talks about a sinner being “dead” it does not mean the sinner cannot do stuff, even in this passage you have the sinner walking, lusting, and indulging. Now these unbeliever sinners can do nothing “righteous, honorable, worthy or noble”, but they can for selfish reasons: wimp out, give up and surrender to their enemy while their enemy is still their enemy. This is like the prodigal son coming to his senses and for selfish reasoning returning home (not some noble act on his part).
You are correct. The passage does not indicate the sinner is physically comatose. It is speaking of our deadness in spirit.
 
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Hammster

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You are correct. The passage does not indicate the sinner is physically comatose. It is speaking of our deadness in spirit.
But the straw man plays well in certain circles. ;)
 
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