How do Young Earth Creationists explain the 15,000 layers of the Haymond Formation?

peggy sue · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
Peggy, if the Earth was not brand new, just "new to us" when the story of the Bible picks up, that would mean that all those fossils shown in the rock declare that death was in the world before Adam and Eve sinned, and that when God declared all was good, that death too was good. Remember, the Bible says that death did not enter the world until sin came into the world.

In Christ, GB

so what your saying is Adam and Eve never accidently stepped on an ant? or the ant was superior to the ants we see today and could handle that much weight on top of them, i don't think death in the world was refering to plants and animals, unless they were (the plants and animals) eating from the tree of life, the tree of life was what kept death from coming on humans. God said if man were allowed to continue to eat from the tree of life he would live forever. without the tree of life the first humans lived exceptionally long lives, the first few generations, although we see this tree of lifes effect on human longevity really only surounded basic health and wellness, as murder was quite capable to end life for anyone who normally could of lived 900 years such as Able would of if he wasn't killed by Cain. death entered the world through their sin, because they could nolonger eat from the tree of life

good brother · Mar 30, 2012

peggy sue said:
so what your saying is Adam and Eve never accidently stepped on an ant? or the ant was superior to the ants we see today and could handle that much weight on top of them, i don't think death in the world was refering to plants and animals, unless they were (the plants and animals) eating from the tree of life, the tree of life was what kept death from coming on humans. God said if man were allowed to continue to eat from the tree of life he would live forever. without the tree of life the first humans lived exceptionally long lives, the first few generations, although we see this tree of lifes effect on human longevity really only surounded basic health and wellness, as murder was quite capable to end life for anyone who normally could of lived 900 years such as Able would of if he wasn't killed by Cain. death entered the world through their sin, because they could nolonger eat from the tree of life

Death was not part of the original design. When God cursed Adam and Eve, He also cursed all animals:

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!

The serpent was cursed more than all the livestock or the wild animals were cursed. The livestock and other wild animals were cursed, but not near as much as the serpent was. So the curse was not on Adam and Eve alone, all the animals of the world felt the curse.

Also, did you know that there are fossil thorns in the fossil record? Thorns and thistles are part of the curse according to the Bible.

Genesis 3:18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you

So thorns and thistles should not be seen in any record before the Curse, so if the Bible is just our "new to us" story, then God is a liar because thorns and thistles would have been present for a long time before God said that in Genesis.

In Christ, GB

CaliforniaSun · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
12 Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Fuit and vegetables and nuts and seeds and leaves (like lettuce or cabbage)...

Do you feel this strong about unborn babies? Eating fruits and veggies isn't quite the same thing as killing a human or slaughtering a cow, now are they?

In Christ, GB

Red herring. How someone feels about abortion, does not in any way whatsoever answer the question of whether eating plant foods qualifies as "killing or death."

Nice try.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
Peggy, if the Earth was not brand new, just "new to us" when the story of the Bible picks up, that would mean that all those fossils shown in the rock declare that death was in the world before Adam and Eve sinned,...

False. Fossils came later.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
Death was not part of the original design. When God cursed Adam and Eve, He also cursed all animals:

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!

The serpent was cursed more than all the livestock or the wild animals were cursed. The livestock and other wild animals were cursed, but not near as much as the serpent was. So the curse was not on Adam and Eve alone, all the animals of the world felt the curse.

Also, did you know that there are fossil thorns in the fossil record? Thorns and thistles are part of the curse according to the Bible.

Genesis 3:18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you

So thorns and thistles should not be seen in any record before the Curse, so if the Bible is just our "new to us" story, then God is a liar because thorns and thistles would have been present for a long time before God said that in Genesis.

In Christ, GB

The fossils of plants are all after Eden.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

Febreze said:
Creationists don't talk about the Haymond Formation anyway because it's confusing for them, I think it upsets them.

Nonsense. I can't even see what the problem is supposed to be with it?

dad · Mar 30, 2012

RickG said:
Oh no dad, you are not wiggling out of this one. You clearly stated that it was pre-flood. The chemical composition and physical properties down to the quantum level are exactly the same as post-flood. That is conclusive evidence that there is no post physics change.

Dad has seen the light and it is good!

The funny thing is that I have no need to wiggle. What we have here is a lack of comprehension of the concept from you. I can understand that, but just behave with humility, and maybe you can learn something.

If the universe of man had a nature change that involved the forces and laws, how would it be that the Haymond formation would not be a part of that??

The issue is NOT how the 'physical properties' now are.

peggy sue · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
Death was not part of the original design. When God cursed Adam and Eve, He also cursed all animals:

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!

The serpent was cursed more than all the livestock or the wild animals were cursed. The livestock and other wild animals were cursed, but not near as much as the serpent was. So the curse was not on Adam and Eve alone, all the animals of the world felt the curse.

Also, did you know that there are fossil thorns in the fossil record? Thorns and thistles are part of the curse according to the Bible.

Genesis 3:18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you

So thorns and thistles should not be seen in any record before the Curse, so if the Bible is just our "new to us" story, then God is a liar because thorns and thistles would have been present for a long time before God said that in Genesis.

In Christ, GB

its important to note where they were living, and where they were being sent to live, i have a garden, it looks completely different from what grows behind the garage, God is not a liar, its only from what perspective you look at things, i'm guessing the garden was exceptionally cared for

good brother · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
False. Fossils came later.

I know fossils didnt come until later, most happening during the flood of Noah's time, that's what I was trying to tell her. Go back and reread hers and my interactions.

In Christ, GB

good brother · Mar 30, 2012

CaliforniaSun said:
Red herring. How someone feels about abortion, does not in any way whatsoever answer the question of whether eating plant foods qualifies as "killing or death."

Nice try.

So what? Are you trying to tell me that eating an apple is killing it, but stopping the beating of a heart of an unborn child is not? Wow.

AV1611VET · Mar 30, 2012

KhaosTheory said:
Even vegetarians "kill" the food when they eat it. So there was obviously death before the fall.

I think we're talking about death of man and animals here.

Plants were created to die -- by design.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
I know fossils didnt come until later, most happening during the flood of Noah's time, that's what I was trying to tell her. Go back and reread hers and my interactions.

In Christ, GB

False. That doesn't seem to fit the evidence. The flood could not be the major player in the fossil record.

RickG · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
The funny thing is that I have no need to wiggle. What we have here is a lack of comprehension of the concept from you. I can understand that, but just behave with humility, and maybe you can learn something.

If the universe of man had a nature change that involved the forces and laws, how would it be that the Haymond formation would not be a part of that??

The issue is NOT how the 'physical properties' now are.

Hey Chief! You are the one who said it was pre-flood strata. There's no denying, pre- & post-flood strata are the same. That can only happen under the same physical laws.

NGC 6712 · Mar 30, 2012

SkyWriting said:
I can't even decipher your sentences yet. And I don't mind.

You had a link in your post I was quoting but I cannot post links yet. That link was of the WMAP sky map. I worked as part of the WMAP team.

CaliforniaSun · Mar 30, 2012

good brother said:
So what? Are you trying to tell me that eating an apple is killing it, but stopping the beating of a heart of an unborn child is not? Wow.

Is that what I said? Wow.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

RickG said:
Hey Chief! You are the one who said it was pre-flood strata. There's no denying, pre- & post-flood strata are the same. That can only happen under the same physical laws.

No. They were not the same. They all share the same state now though. Go figure.

good brother · Mar 31, 2012

CaliforniaSun said:
Is that what I said? Wow.

Had I originally been talking to you about it? No. I was talking with Kaos Theory and you decided to interrupt.

Now, to the point about unborn babies. Kaos had said that people "killed" every time they ate any fruit or veggie. I simply asked him if he felt that strongly about the unborn and their life, that's when YOU jumped in. You said my argument was a "Red herring" because "How someone feels about abortion, does not in any way whatsoever answer the question of whether eating plant foods qualifies as 'killing or death'". I just want to say that it absolutely does have something to do with the conversation at hand. If Kaos (or you, for that matter) don't feel as though the act of abortion is killing, then he (or you) don't have any justification in saying that eating a a veggie is killing. When the act of stopping a beating heart is not counted as killing, what right would he (or you) have to question me (or anyone else) about whether or not eating a fruit is killing?

In Christ, GB

RickG · Mar 31, 2012

dad said:
No. They were not the same. They all share the same state now though. Go figure.

You are talking utter nonsense and literally making stuff up for whatever reason.

RickG · Mar 31, 2012

good brother said:
How long did it take for all the layers to form at Mt St Helens? I guess under the right conditions it could happen very very quickly. Were you there to see the Haymond formation take that long? I bet not. Did y'all find a stop watch at the bottom of the pile that says it is "X" years old? No again. So, how do you KNOW that it took that long to form?

Does everyone know the age because of all the burrows? It's strange how, for as many "burrows" there are supposed to be in those layers, that there aren't any humps of material around the supposed burrows. Animals that burrow leave humps of displaced dirt around the openings of their burrows, yet strangely ALL the burrows in that formation are void of displaced dirt humps. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be the ASSUMPTIONS of what those burrow like holes are could be mistaken? Of course the evolutionists couldn't be mistaken, after all, they are real scientists! No, there must be another explanation....Hmmm... what would be a good explanation for all those missing humps of materials from supposed burrows that were dug over many thousands of years? Could it be they are wrong about something?

You don't know how long it took to form those layers. You don't know what caused the burrow like structures in the layers. Yeah, I don't see Biblical history shot down at all.

In Christ, GB

Good Brother, are you familiar with Glenn Morton? He was once a "young-earth" creationist and also a geologist. If you want to find out why he left "young-earth" creationism, his story is here: Glenn Morton's story

However, the reason I am responding to your post is to point to a detailed discussion and explanation of the geologic column and in particular the Haymond Formation by Glenn Morton. I invite you to read the article and give your feedback. Blessings.

The Geologic Column

verysincere · Mar 31, 2012

good brother said:
Animals that burrow leave humps of displaced dirt around the openings of their burrows, yet strangely ALL the burrows in that formation are void of displaced dirt humps. Why do you suppose that is?

While realizing that the above is only one of the huge "dodges" represented by good brother's" post, a face-palm question of that sort is too entertaining to pass up:

>"Why do you suppose that is?"

Ever hear of WIND and RAIN?

Or do you think all animals have to re-excavate their tunnels on a daily basis?

And do you REALLY think that professional geologists are stumped as easily as you are? My reply is just one of many ways to demolish your "logic" but I thought I would mention a very simple one in hopes that it would get you started in thinking.

Please, good brother, next time at least TRY to come up with a credible counter-argument. But why not actually read Morton's article (or any of the many written on this topic which "creation science" continues to ignore) and then research the geology of the topic?

How do Young Earth Creationists explain the 15,000 layers of the Haymond Formation?

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