How do you view "the law"?

[Open Heart]

Well then I must strongly doubt whether their membership holds to their stated doctrines.

As I doubt most gentiles in One Law assemblies actually keep all the jewish laws.

 

[Open Heart]

It was the relationship that they have with your favorite big MJ organization I was pointing to, not the fact that they have all kinds of theology issues. The reason MJAA is so large is because they use these fringe membership numbers to boast.

MJAA is not connected with Two House folks.

 

[Open Heart]

Calling anyone to second classes positions like hey must stand at the back of the bus heading to the promised land... is hurtful. If God wants us to wear linens, then we need to obey His directives as they are they very thing that make up His people. We are not the goy to serve Israel in the Olam, we are His people to worship and serve Him.

Who says that being a Gentile is second class? It is simply a different job. It sounds to me like you have some kind of inferiority complex.

 

[visionary]

MJAA is not connected with Two House folks.

The article is all about the two house speakers at the MJAA conference

 

[visionary]

Who says that being a Gentile is second class? It is simply a different job. It sounds to me like you have some kind of inferiority complex.

The more you push gentiles out of The Way, The Truth, The Life in Yeshua... the more I wish you were a gentile.

 

[Open Heart]

And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold.

All the examples given by One Law proponants, "other sheep," "grafted on" to the olive tree of those who accept the gospel, being part of the commonwealth, etc., do NOT mean being Israel or being obligated to Israel's covenant.

 

[Open Heart]

The article is all about the two house speakers at the MJAA conference

And I gave you an MJAA artical repudiating the Two House movement in the strongest of words.

 

[Hoshiyya]

This is very good.

And Yeshua says: "And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd." - John 10:16

How can we be one flock with 2 sets of rules?

Even Paul agrees we're one flock: "But if SOME (not all) of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree." - Romans 11:17

"For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree." - Romans 11:24

IOW, Israel doesn't get grafted into the church, we're grafted into Israel.

So even those that believe the laws are only for Israel, we've been grafted in so now we're Israel too.

Therefore the laws apply to us, the new Israelite "ingraftees".

We may have been righteous Gentiles before we accepted the Jewish Messiah, but afterwards we're Israelite "ingraftees".

You are of course right that one flock necessitates one rule.

But I want to add / suggest something:

In a way, the question is not whether the Torah is for Jews only or not;
the question is not "one law" or not one law;
the question is not whether Torah applies to Jews and/or to gentiles.

Rather, the issue is the Elect.

Some of the Elect are born Israelite, some of the Elect are born gentiles.

I've gotten some criticism lately for supporting Torah for gentiles.
However, I might clarify that Torah is not really for gentiles, nor for Jews, corporately speaking:
rather, Torah is for God's called and chosen ones, regardless of their birth.

Really, it all ties back into God's gradual and long-term plan of salvation.

 

[Hoshiyya]

All the examples given by One Law proponants, "other sheep," "grafted on" to the olive tree of those who accept the gospel, being part of the commonwealth, etc., do NOT mean being Israel or being obligated to Israel's covenant.

There is no alternative understanding of those verses that makes any real sense, though.

God has ONE standard for right and wrong, not two.

Really, this is a very simple matter. He has given us human households to learn. You don't have one standard for one son, and a completely opposite standard for the other son. If eating swine is bad for your kids, you tell BOTH to avoid it.

 

[visionary]

MJAA is not connected with Two House folks.

The post was about two house speakers at MJAA conference

 

[visionary]

Who says that being a Gentile is second class? It is simply a different job. It sounds to me like you have some kind of inferiority complex.

God calls, and Judaism says not for gentiles.

 

[visionary]

As I doubt most gentiles in One Law assemblies actually keep all the jewish laws.

We do not have to keep traditonal ...

 

[Hoshiyya]

As I doubt most gentiles in One Law assemblies actually keep all the jewish laws.

Well nobody is perfect, that's a separate matter.
I'm commenting on the intellectual issue of doctrines.

For example, you belong to the RCC, yet hold unique views I have never heard from a Catholic ever.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Who says that being a Gentile is second class? It is simply a different job. It sounds to me like you have some kind of inferiority complex.

You are projecting a ridiculous "complex" onto the other person, rather than actually try to convince them or offer anything meaningful.

Torah is the greatest thing, and it belongs to God, not Israel. He gives it to whomever he so chooses.

Yeshua gave dire warnings to those who promote torahlessness.

 

[pinacled]

I don't see how that is hurtful. How is it hurtful that Gentiles can wear linen and cotton together?

Its the secretive kind of hurtful. It is a deceptive motivation of Greed and Vanity.
Keeping a larger portion for oneself while serving your brother scraps that have little constitution. Living in luxury while the poor are stricken with confusion.
It is also a strategy in the pride of the educated. Though I do know a few artist sharing Torah in stories.
The Catholic Elders study the Law and yet I hear Catholics in Forums claim otherwise.
The one thing that has been a bane to me are the Lies. One after another I uncover them in the Churches..
Which in turn reveal more and more prophecies..

Zechariah Chapter 1 זְכַרְיָה
א בַּחֹדֶשׁ, הַשְּׁמִינִי, בִּשְׁנַת שְׁתַּיִם, לְדָרְיָוֶשׁ--הָיָה דְבַר-יְהוָה, אֶל-זְכַרְיָה בֶּן-בֶּרֶכְיָה, בֶּן-עִדּוֹ הַנָּבִיא, לֵאמֹר. 1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo, the prophet, saying:
ב קָצַף יְהוָה עַל-אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, קָצֶף. 2 'The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
ג וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם, כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, שׁוּבוּ אֵלַי, נְאֻם יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת--וְאָשׁוּב אֲלֵיכֶם, אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת. 3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts: Return unto Me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.
ד אַל-תִּהְיוּ כַאֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר קָרְאוּ-אֲלֵיהֶם הַנְּבִיאִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים לֵאמֹר, כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, שׁוּבוּ נָא מִדַּרְכֵיכֶם הָרָעִים, ומעליליכם (וּמַעַלְלֵיכֶם) הָרָעִים; וְלֹא שָׁמְעוּ וְלֹא-הִקְשִׁיבוּ אֵלַי, נְאֻם-יְהוָה. 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets proclaimed, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: Return ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings; but they did not hear, nor attend unto Me, saith the LORD.
ה אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, אַיֵּה-הֵם; וְהַנְּבִאִים--הַלְעוֹלָם, יִחְיוּ. 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever?
ו אַךְ דְּבָרַי וְחֻקַּי, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִי אֶת-עֲבָדַי הַנְּבִיאִים, הֲלוֹא הִשִּׂיגוּ, אֲבֹתֵיכֶם; וַיָּשׁוּבוּ וַיֹּאמְרוּ, כַּאֲשֶׁר זָמַם יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת לַעֲשׂוֹת לָנוּ, כִּדְרָכֵינוּ וּכְמַעֲלָלֵינוּ, כֵּן עָשָׂה אִתָּנוּ. {ס} 6 But My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? so that they turned and said: Like as the LORD of hosts purposed to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath He dealt with us.' {S}

 

[Hoshiyya]

"How is it hurtful that Gentiles can wear linen and cotton together?"

Assuming you are not a descendant of Aaron officiating at the temple, anyone can wear linen and cotton together, so that is not a meaningful example.

Whoever wants to keep the true Torah of Hashem, Hashem helps him and welcomes him. I think it is wrong (from the written Bible) to speak against that or problematize that.

Somebody wants to GROW, and you would tell them to not grow ?

 

[Open Heart]

Rather, the issue is the Elect.

The Elect are those who accept the Gospel, the NEW covenant. It has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

 

[Open Heart]

There is no alternative understanding of those verses that makes any real sense, though.

God has ONE standard for right and wrong, not two.

Really, this is a very simple matter. He has given us human households to learn. You don't have one standard for one son, and a completely opposite standard for the other son. If eating swine is bad for your kids, you tell BOTH to avoid it.

God does have different sets of standards in numerous occasions. Women do different things than men. Levitical priests have a stricter set of standards than regular Jews. In the same way, Jews have a stricter set of standards than Gentiles. It doesn't make Gentiles second class, just as regular Jews are not second class compared to the Kohanim. Nor does it make God inconsistant or unfair. It simply means God assigns different jobs to different people.

The kosher laws have NOTHING to do with health. We Jews eat kosher in order to set us apart from the nations.

 

[Open Heart]

God calls, and Judaism says not for gentiles.

Judaism says Gentiles have a different calling.

 

[Open Heart]

We do not have to keep traditonal ...

This has nothing to do with what I said.