How do you view "the law"?

[Hoshiyya]

One Law is NOT the majority MJ position, it is only the majority MJ position in THIS FORUM.

I think "One Law" as you call it is the majority position of all MJs I have ever talked with.
But you know, I am interested: what is God's opinion ?
Let's look at what God says, as God's opinion is what really matters.

The Word of God says:

"There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Ex. 12:49

"You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the LORD your God.”
Lev. 24:22

"One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
Num. 15:16

 

[pinacled]

Looking Inward..
Reflection
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Galatians 4King James Version (KJV)
4 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Philippians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Parallels...

 

[Open Heart]

I think "One Law" as you call it is the majority position of all MJs I have ever talked with.
But you know, I am interested: what is God's opinion ?
Let's look at what God says, as God's opinion is what really matters.

The Word of God says:

"There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Ex. 12:49

"You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the LORD your God.”
Lev. 24:22

"One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
Num. 15:16

We've been through this all before. YOu KNOW there are answers to all your statements.

You ARE aware that MJAA and UMJC do not teach One Law and that they are the majority denominations of MJ. Just because you do not personally have contact with people doesn't mean you are not aware.

 

[visionary]

We've been through this all before. YOu KNOW there are answers to all your statements.

You ARE aware that MJAA and UMJC do not teach One Law and that they are the majority denominations of MJ. Just because you do not personally have contact with people doesn't mean you are not aware.

They are organizations, no creators of MJ. God is in control of this movement. They may have their agendas for whatever reasons they came together to promote.

I know the UMJC are solid orthodox thinking Jews who happen to believe in Yeshua. They are trying to get accepted by Orthodox Judaism as legit. So all Orthodox Judaism traditions are reflected in their version of MJ. It is not but one picture.

 

[Hoshiyya]

We've been through this all before. YOu KNOW there are answers to all your statements.

You ARE aware that MJAA and UMJC do not teach One Law and that they are the majority denominations of MJ. Just because you do not personally have contact with people doesn't mean you are not aware.

Well then I must strongly doubt whether their membership holds to their stated doctrines.

 

[visionary]

"The MIA Ami 2000 conference...Speakers will include Angus and Batya Wootten, Ralph Messer, Rene' Bloch, Moshe Konichowsky, David and Natalie Pavlik, Monte Judah, Randy and Lori Dryer, Mordechai Silver, David Barsky, Scott Diffenderfer, Hale Harris, Carl Parker, Phil Davis, Pam Staley, Eddie Chumney, and a host of others...."http://www.mim.net/Events/AMI_2000_Info.html.; http://members.aol.com/mikestyer/newsarc1.html.

If you do not recognize some of these names... they are of the Hebrew Root crowd. Rabbi Moshe Joseph Koniuchowsky does The Two Houses of Israel Teachings

 

[visionary]

A movement alternately known as the "Ephraimite," "Restoration of Israel," "Two-Covenant Israel," or "Two House" movement has recently gained ground in some areas among ardent Christian Zionists. Proponents of this movement contend that members of the "born-again" segment of the Christian church are, in fact, actual blood descendants of the ancient Israelites who were exiled in the Assyrian invasion of Israel in 722 B.C.E.1

Primary among the movement's spokespersons are Batya Wootten and Marshall, a.k.a. Moshe, Koniuchowsky.

 

[visionary]

Robert Cohen, listed as one of Kevin Geoffrey's advisors and mentors, was speaker at the MJAA's Messiah '99, sharing the platform with Rick Joyner. Joyner teaches Latter Rainand Manifest Sons of God theology, and claims that from among the Manifest Sons of God, "super-apostles" will be created. Those who oppose the "spiritual move of God" as envisioned by Joyner, and written about in his various books, will comprise the hordes of hell. This "move of God" he promotes is composed of those in the Toronto Blessing, Manifest Sons of God/Latter Rain and the numerous related so-called renewal and revival movements. And he, and many like him, are welcomed with open arms in the MJAA

 

[visionary]

Robert Cohen, who called Joyner a "righteous gentile," is currently on the Executive for the MJAA and also chairperson for the IAMCS Steering Committee. From his church biography we note that he had been under the Messianic Ministries of Martin and David Chernoff.

Cohen has been a leader in the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) for the past 20 years. He is the past president of the Alliance, and is currently Chairman of the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS). He is also a member of the Jacksonville Christian Pastors and Leaders Fellowship (JCPLF).

 

[visionary]

Joel Chernoff of Lamb Mix in the timeless Psalms of David with the emotional resonance of Jewish-flavored melodies, then add the contemporary production strength of Dove award-winning producer Bill Cuomo, and you have a recipe for a matchless worship experience from Messianic Praise & Worship pioneer Joel Chernoff (of Lamb).

According to one of his past CD promotions, "Joel currently serves as the General Secretary of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) and the president of the International Messianic Jewish Alliance (IMJA)."

 

[visionary]

Because Torah is G-d's instructions for righteousness and freedom. The Torah is meant to be taught to all the nations.

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

It is a crucial part of the New Covenant to which both Jews and gentiles belong telling all Believers how to become His people. UMJC is teaching something very hurtful: the teaching that gentiles should not follow the Torah. Rabbis in the UMJC who teach this position. David Rudolph is one among many. He puts it this way, "…there are two universal rules in the New Testament that enjoin Jews to remain Jews, and Gentiles to remain Gentiles"

So I ask you if these organizations have all the members of MJ within their control then why is there not a Noahide branch of MJ, which would be larger than the Jew's main body as there is more gentiles than Jews within the MJ body? I will tell you why... Gentiles are not buying it. They would have to reject Yeshua, their Messiah. They are MJ, the one law body because they believe God speaks to them also.

God instills in us a desire to follow Torah. But those who are taught by the UMJC that Torah is not for them, and if they swallow this millarky, it plunges them into identity confusion, cognitive dissonance, and sometimes can even lead to them abandoning their association with us or worse join Noahides and abandon Yeshua as their Messiah.

 

[The Lone Ranger]

As MJ or Jews do you keep the Halakha or do you believe Yeshua supercedes that and aren't obliged? How and when should we incorporate traditional customs into our lives?

I believe Yeshua supercedes the law and I follow the golden rule but I am not sure what other laws and traditions I should observe and at what point am I doing things that dismiss everything Yeshua came for?

How about this? The Trinity was already here on Earth before GOD became man in Jesus. Who was Abraham talking to before GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Weren't they three men, or two were angels, one was man? We see that when Jacob fought with THE SON whom dislocated Jacobs' leg in a wrestling match. Then we see Amalek was confronted by the Spirit of the Lord whom made his donkey talk. Then we see the Holy Spirit going before the Jews as they entered Canaan, and also when the Jews called upon GOD, HE also went out before them and defeated their enemies. So, Christians think that Jesus released the Holy Spirit on people only after HE was born, died, and was resurrected. Well wasn't it here before HE lived, but when HE became Man it filled THE MAN, then when HE passed, HE released it again? Jews already knew there was a MAN GOD who could walk the Earth like a man, There was a Holy Spirit of the LORD that stands very, very tall, that carry's a sword, and there was a spirit of awesome power that could do anything it wanted to do, including be a non-consuming fire in a bush, and devour a family through a sinkhole, and cast plagues, confusion, fire, stop a river from flowing, and etc..... The LAW already has love in it, but Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. HE also said Love was the LAW. How about that?

 

[The Lone Ranger]

The Land of Canaan had a "mess" of people in it, and they were perverse in their ways. They would marry their kids, and brothers, and sisters, aunts and uncles, and their animals, and just went around and had twenty wives, and the sort, kind of greedy there, since GOD doesn't like greed. So GOD said HE would never destroy the Earth by flood again and HE was sorry for destroying people who were made in HIS image, (not a Dinosaurs image). So HE has a group of people HE couldn't do anything with, and did not want that kind of "mess" to take over the Earth. So, HE sent the children of Israel in to judge the Canaanites.

 

[The Lone Ranger]

Because Torah is G-d's instructions for righteousness and freedom. The Torah is meant to be taught to all the nations.

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

It is a crucial part of the New Covenant to which both Jews and gentiles belong telling all Believers how to become His people. UMJC is teaching something very hurtful: the teaching that gentiles should not follow the Torah. Rabbis in the UMJC who teach this position. David Rudolph is one among many. He puts it this way, "…there are two universal rules in the New Testament that enjoin Jews to remain Jews, and Gentiles to remain Gentiles"

So I ask you if these organizations have all the members of MJ within their control then why is there not a Noahide branch of MJ, which would be larger than the Jew's main body as there is more gentiles than Jews within the MJ body? I will tell you why... Gentiles are not buying it. They would have to reject Yeshua, their Messiah. They are MJ, the one law body because they believe God speaks to them also.

God instills in us a desire to follow Torah. But those who are taught by the UMJC that Torah is not for them, and if they swallow this millarky, it plunges them into identity confusion, cognitive dissonance, and sometimes can even lead to them abandoning their association with us or worse join Noahides and abandon Yeshua as their Messiah.

I will agree, since Jehova was upset with me for NOT following the Torah. HE was kind enough to let me know I needed to follow it though. HIS mercy. The Spirit was all over me for it, like a mad man. It just about felt like the Lord of Hosts was knocking at my door till I opened my heart to it.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread had a clean up. It would be great if there was some respect shown to each other rather than taking digs. ​

 

[Truthfrees]

I think "One Law" as you call it is the majority position of all MJs I have ever talked with.
But you know, I am interested: what is God's opinion ?
Let's look at what God says, as God's opinion is what really matters.

The Word of God says:

"There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Ex. 12:49

"You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the LORD your God.”
Lev. 24:22

"One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
Num. 15:16

This is very good.

And Yeshua says: "And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd." - John 10:16

How can we be one flock with 2 sets of rules?

Even Paul agrees we're one flock: "But if SOME (not all) of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree." - Romans 11:17

"For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree." - Romans 11:24

IOW, Israel doesn't get grafted into the church, we're grafted into Israel.

So even those that believe the laws are only for Israel, we've been grafted in so now we're Israel too.

Therefore the laws apply to us, the new Israelite "ingraftees".

We may have been righteous Gentiles before we accepted the Jewish Messiah, but afterwards we're Israelite "ingraftees".

 

[Open Heart]

A movement alternately known as the "Ephraimite," "Restoration of Israel," "Two-Covenant Israel," or "Two House" movement has recently gained ground in some areas among ardent Christian Zionists. Proponents of this movement contend that members of the "born-again" segment of the Christian church are, in fact, actual blood descendants of the ancient Israelites who were exiled in the Assyrian invasion of Israel in 722 B.C.E.1

Primary among the movement's spokespersons are Batya Wootten and Marshall, a.k.a. Moshe, Koniuchowsky.

The Two House Movement is SO FALSE. Wootten made it up out of whole cloth. Mainstream MJ is thoroughly opposed to it. Here is a bit from an article by MJAA:

"Despite their arguments, the Bible tells us that many of the northern kingdom's subjects rejoined the southern kingdom both before and after its people were exiled. Based on this, scripture makes the claim that the Jews today represent "all Israel." The term, "Gentile Israel," used by Wootten, is an oxymoron in terms of the biblical world of ideas.10

Jer 30:10 addresses the Judahite exiles (cf. Jer 29:1, 30-31) and calls them "Jacob" and "Israel." Jer 31:17-20 reports that Ephraim has repented (past tense) and describes Ephraim grieving over its own acts. Ezra 2:70 states of the returned exiles, "and all Israel lived in their cities." Zechariah addresses the same Medo-Persian returnees as "Oh house of Judah and house of Israel" (8:13; cf. 8:15) and distinguishes them from the people of the nations (Zech 8:23). It is thus not accurate to argue that references to post-exilic Judah are unique to Judah and do not apply to Israel.

Those who returned from exile referred to themselves both as Jews and as the people of Israel because they affirmed the theocratic reign of God centered in Jerusalem, the capital of the former kingdoms of united Israel and, later, Judah (Yehudah).

Thus the phrase "the Jewish people" has become the title for all of Israel. The term Jew encompassed all those who were taken into captivity by the time of the Babylonian exile, both former Israelites and Judahites, "the remnant of Israel" (Jer 31:7. Cf. Jer 50:33; Neh 12:47; Dan 9:11; Lam 2:5). By the time of the writing of Esther, the term Jew, derived from Judah, could refer to someone from the tribe of Benjamin (Esth 2:5). In the Greek Tobit 11:17, in a clear reference to the Assyrian exiles, it states, "So on that day there was rejoicing among all the Jews who were in Nineveh." This designation became so widespread that by the time of the Hellenistic period, the term Jew identified those of all the former tribes who dwelt in the diaspora and who affirmed a particular religious system. Wootten's claim that the northern Israelites were "never once called Jews" is false."

http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=1022&page=NewsArticle&id=5143&security=1

 

[visionary]

The Two House Movement is SO FALSE. Wootten made it up out of whole cloth. Mainstream MJ is thoroughly opposed to it. Here is a bit from an article by MJAA:

"Despite their arguments, the Bible tells us that many of the northern kingdom's subjects rejoined the southern kingdom both before and after its people were exiled. Based on this, scripture makes the claim that the Jews today represent "all Israel." The term, "Gentile Israel," used by Wootten, is an oxymoron in terms of the biblical world of ideas.10

Jer 30:10 addresses the Judahite exiles (cf. Jer 29:1, 30-31) and calls them "Jacob" and "Israel." Jer 31:17-20 reports that Ephraim has repented (past tense) and describes Ephraim grieving over its own acts. Ezra 2:70 states of the returned exiles, "and all Israel lived in their cities." Zechariah addresses the same Medo-Persian returnees as "Oh house of Judah and house of Israel" (8:13; cf. 8:15) and distinguishes them from the people of the nations (Zech 8:23). It is thus not accurate to argue that references to post-exilic Judah are unique to Judah and do not apply to Israel.

Those who returned from exile referred to themselves both as Jews and as the people of Israel because they affirmed the theocratic reign of God centered in Jerusalem, the capital of the former kingdoms of united Israel and, later, Judah (Yehudah).

Thus the phrase "the Jewish people" has become the title for all of Israel. The term Jew encompassed all those who were taken into captivity by the time of the Babylonian exile, both former Israelites and Judahites, "the remnant of Israel" (Jer 31:7. Cf. Jer 50:33; Neh 12:47; Dan 9:11; Lam 2:5). By the time of the writing of Esther, the term Jew, derived from Judah, could refer to someone from the tribe of Benjamin (Esth 2:5). In the Greek Tobit 11:17, in a clear reference to the Assyrian exiles, it states, "So on that day there was rejoicing among all the Jews who were in Nineveh." This designation became so widespread that by the time of the Hellenistic period, the term Jew identified those of all the former tribes who dwelt in the diaspora and who affirmed a particular religious system. Wootten's claim that the northern Israelites were "never once called Jews" is false."

http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=1022&page=NewsArticle&id=5143&security=1

It was the relationship that they have with your favorite big MJ organization I was pointing to, not the fact that they have all kinds of theology issues. The reason MJAA is so large is because they use these fringe membership numbers to boast.

 

[Open Heart]

It is a crucial part of the New Covenant to which both Jews and gentiles belong telling all Believers how to become His people. UMJC is teaching something very hurtful: the teaching that gentiles should not follow the Torah. Rabbis in the UMJC who teach this position. David Rudolph is one among many. He puts it this way, "…there are two universal rules in the New Testament that enjoin Jews to remain Jews, and Gentiles to remain Gentiles"

I don't see how that is hurtful. How is it hurtful that Gentiles can wear linen and cotton together?

 

[visionary]

I don't see how that is hurtful. How is it hurtful that Gentiles can wear linen and cotton together?

Calling anyone to second classes positions like they must stand at the back of the bus heading to the promised land... is hurtful. If God wants us to wear linens, then we need to obey His directives as they are the very thing that make up His people. We are not the goy to serve Israel in the Olam, we are His people to worship and serve Him.