How do you not be gay?

[Antoninus Verus]

Today we were debating the Defense of Marraige act in Government. One rather...un-educated young woman spoke up and said "Well they should just stop being gay and that would solve it." Ive heard many similar, though less direct, arguments from pro-DOMA (Defense of Marraige Act) Christians.

My question is how? How do you just STOP?

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Basically, through Classical Conditioning....

If done correctly, I could classically condition you to be attracted to a carrot.

Same concept.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Classical conditioning doesnt work. A very close friend of mine, who was a dedicated lesbian, had a hard time accepting the fact that she was different before she became comfortable with herself. I actually worked with her on it and we tried a myraid of different ways to condition her not to be lesbian, not one thing we tried had even a glimmer of success.

And I am POSITIVE that she was not the only person that tried it. If its so effective, why arent more people doing it? Being gay is not something that some people like. One young man at my high school actually shot himself in the head because he couldnt come to grips with the fact that he was gay. Im sure he tried all sorts of "classical conditioning" methods. If they worked, why did he shoot himself?

 

[joebudda]

My father tried his very best to live what Christians assume to be the “good Christian life”. But it didn’t fix him, all it did was make him miserable. Today he just accepts that he is gay and he lives a very happy life.

I am glad he dropped this idea that Christianity can make you happy and found happiness on his own.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Classical conditioning doesnt work. A very close friend of mine, who was a dedicated lesbian, had a hard time accepting the fact that she was different before she became comfortable with herself. I actually worked with her on it and we tried a myraid of different ways to condition her not to be lesbian, not one thing we tried had even a glimmer of success.

And I am POSITIVE that she was not the only person that tried it. If its so effective, why arent more people doing it? Being gay is not something that some people like. One young man at my high school actually shot himself in the head because he couldnt come to grips with the fact that he was gay. Im sure he tried all sorts of "classical conditioning" methods. If they worked, why did he shoot himself?

It does work, if done correctly. I'm not saying that this is a good idea, and I am opposed to it, but it is how it happens. All the propoganda about psychologists and psychiatrists changing people from homosexual to herterosexual is somewhat true. I say somewhat, because records are never kept on how long it lasts. The APA is against this, and will not support any memeber of the field doing it.

[edited to change a mix up in words]

 

[joebudda]

It does work, if done correctly. I'm not saying that this is a good idea, and I am opposed to it, but it is how it happens. All the propoganda about psychologists and psychiatrists changing people from homosexual to herterosexual is somewhat true. I say somewhat, because records are never kept on how long it lasts. The APA is against this, and will not support any memeber of the field doing it.

[edited to change a mix up in words]

I know and understand how conditioning works. Studied quite a bit on it in my psychology classes yet I can’t even start to think of a technique that would be used in this situation. Do you know of any, if so can you please share being I am quite interested. Or do you know of any links that talk about these techniques?

I can’t for the life of me see how it is possible.

 

[:æ:]

My question is how? How do you just STOP?

Do you think that you could "stop" being heterosexual?

I don't think that I could.

:æ:

 

[Antoninus Verus]

It does work, if done correctly. I'm not saying that this is a good idea, and I am opposed to it, but it is how it happens. All the propoganda about psychologists and psychiatrists changing people from homosexual to herterosexual is somewhat true. I say somewhat, because records are never kept on how long it lasts. The APA is against this, and will not support any memeber of the field doing it.

[edited to change a mix up in words]

Do you have any studdies of this? Evidence?

 

[Bond Slave]

Today we were debating the Defense of Marraige act in Government. One rather...un-educated young woman spoke up and said "Well they should just stop being gay and that would solve it." Ive heard many similar, though less direct, arguments from pro-DOMA (Defense of Marraige Act) Christians.

My question is how? How do you just STOP?

The temptation to sin is not going to end while in this life. You can be given the strength to not give in and thus overcome it though through Jesus.

 

[SnowBear]

It does work, if done correctly. I'm not saying that this is a good idea, and I am opposed to it, but it is how it happens. All the propoganda about psychologists and psychiatrists changing people from homosexual to herterosexual is somewhat true. I say somewhat, because records are never kept on how long it lasts. The APA is against this, and will not support any memeber of the field doing it.

[edited to change a mix up in words]

Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo. Interviewed hundreds of men and women who attempted to change their sexual orientation and found: They published their findings in

“Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers” published in “Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives” Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD



“A significant proportion of reparative therapy patients sustain serious, lasting injuries. Having been misled into thinking that being gay is a mental disorder and something that can be changed if they'll only try hard enough, many people feel doubly flawed when a "cure" eludes them. "Frequently they become very, very depressed," a mental state that in many interviewees triggered such self-destructive behavior as unsafe sex, drug abuse or suicide attempts, Shield reports.

Reparative therapy not only encourages self-hatred but often sours family relationships by spreading the myth that homosexuality results from poor parenting. Some patients suffer spiritually when they cannot do what they're told God requires. And a great many temporarily lose their capacity for real human intimacy. Repressing gay desires creates a void, not a true heterosexual.”

 

[SolomonVII]

It is very possible that sexual behavior, like any other, is a learned behavior. Classical conditioning, reward of heterosexual behavior, punishement for homosexual behavior, modelling, and all other modes of learning may well be involved even in sexual orientation.

If so, with homosexuality becoming increasingly more accepted in society, we might expect its incidence to increase as well.
Many historians understand homosexual behavior to have been a norm between mature men and younger boys in classical Greek and Roman times.
Most, if not all human behavior, may be undrstood as being learned. there is no real reason to believe that sexual behavior need be understood to be any different.

Personally though, I would doubt that classical conditioning would work in a lot of cases. Childhood sexual experiences and dysfunctional and horrendous heterosexual experiences can have more powerful effects on our behavior than anything that any trained professional can ethically repicate in his or her office.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

I know and understand how conditioning works. Studied quite a bit on it in my psychology classes yet I can’t even start to think of a technique that would be used in this situation. Do you know of any, if so can you please share being I am quite interested. Or do you know of any links that talk about these techniques?

I can’t for the life of me see how it is possible.

I'll google it and get back to you.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Here is one site, so far.

http://www.narth.com/docs/attemptstomodify.html

It also contains many different approaches, other than classical conditioning. Other sites I've read, link CC to shock therapy techniques, but I will not read those sites.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change3.html

This is one of them, if you are interested. I'm not even sure what it says, because I didn't read it all, so... it may or may not be accurate.

 

[joebudda]

It is very possible that sexual behavior, like any other, is a learned behavior. Classical conditioning, reward of heterosexual behavior, punishement for homosexual behavior, modelling, and all other modes of learning may well be involved even in sexual orientation.

If so, with homosexuality becoming increasingly more accepted in society, we might expect its incidence to increase as well.
Many historians understand homosexual behavior to have been a norm between mature men and younger boys in classical Greek and Roman times.
Most, if not all human behavior, may be undrstood as being learned. there is no real reason to believe that sexual behavior need be understood to be any different.

Personally though, I would doubt that classical conditioning would work in a lot of cases. Childhood sexual experiences and dysfunctional and horrendous heterosexual experiences can have more powerful effects on our behavior than anything that any trained professional can ethically repicate in his or her office.

There is a problem with your theory.

Sexual attraction, if a learned behavior, then everyone would have a 50/50 chance of going either way. And it doesn’t explain how someone could become gay growing up where they never observed or learned to be.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo. Interviewed hundreds of men and women who attempted to change their sexual orientation and found: They published their findings in

“Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers” published in “Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives” Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD



“A significant proportion of reparative therapy patients sustain serious, lasting injuries. Having been misled into thinking that being gay is a mental disorder and something that can be changed if they'll only try hard enough, many people feel doubly flawed when a "cure" eludes them. "Frequently they become very, very depressed," a mental state that in many interviewees triggered such self-destructive behavior as unsafe sex, drug abuse or suicide attempts, Shield reports.

Reparative therapy not only encourages self-hatred but often sours family relationships by spreading the myth that homosexuality results from poor parenting. Some patients suffer spiritually when they cannot do what they're told God requires. And a great many temporarily lose their capacity for real human intimacy. Repressing gay desires creates a void, not a true heterosexual.”

I totally agree with this, and these are the reasons that the APA stand against it.

 

[Charles Darwin]

I wouldn't expect someone who is gay to be able to stop any more than i would expect myself to not be heterosexual

 

[joebudda]

Here is one site, so far.

http://www.narth.com/docs/attemptstomodify.html

It also contains many different approaches, other than classical conditioning. Other sites I've read, link CC to shock therapy techniques, but I will not read those sites.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change3.html

This is one of them, if you are interested. I'm not even sure what it says, because I didn't read it all, so... it may or may not be accurate.

Thank you, but it is just as I thought.

They are using conditioning for behavior modification. So they are treating the symptom not the condition. In your second link the only studies that claim any kind of success are the studies using shock therapy, hmmm I wonder why this is?

I would also like to ask some of these researchers what “some improvement” means.

 

[SolomonVII]

There is a problem with your theory.

Sexual attraction, if a learned behavior, then everyone would have a 50/50 chance of going either way. And it doesn’t explain how someone could become gay growing up where they never observed or learned to be.

In fact, Jung was one psychologist who believed that people were inherently bisexual, though to differing degrees.
50/50 chance does not take into account nature. Different people have different personalities, and different dispostions, etc.

But it takes the debate too far the other way to not consider the high degree of malleability of behavior, and the degree to which learning shapes what we do.
And I seriously doubt that a social context has ever existed in which at least some of the people have not acted 'gayish', and the myruiad of possible meanings that the word gay has.

 

[Eve_Sundancer]

Conditioning I suppose could do something... it would harm more than heal as far as I'm concerned. Rewarding heterosexual behavior and punishing homosexual behavior? Put yourself in those shoes, how would you feel? It would hurt, I'd imagine.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

There is a problem with your theory.

Sexual attraction, if a learned behavior, then everyone would have a 50/50 chance of going either way. And it doesn’t explain how someone could become gay growing up where they never observed or learned to be.

This isn't exactly true. I'm not saying that homosexuality is a learned behavior. In my opinion, it is a combination of nature and nurture. I have yet to take the sexuality class in my psych courses yet. This is mainly because I want a firm grasp on psychology before I tackle the issue so that I can reason it out better. But, back to the point, your argument is slightly flawed here.

If sexual attraction is a learned behavior, then everyone would not be given a 50/50 chance. Homosexuals would have to fit into a certain niche, that fewer heterosexuals would fit into. Think of the brain as a brick wall. The lowest layer is made up of genetic qualities as well as hormonal qualities. A homosexual will have a predisposition to homosexuality. So, there, the first bricks are laid. Now, think as the next couple layers as young age. If a child is molested by someone of the opposite sex, they will subconsciously fear this sex, even if it is at a young age. There is another layer. Other factors would contribute to this. If a child grows up in a family that is only of the same sex as the child, they are more likely to identifiy with this sex. Another layer. It goes on and on from here, until you have a... for lack of better description... big gay wall.

I am not saying that all homosexuals were molested, or the likes. I'm just trying to point out that there is a niche that others wouldn't fit into, and for many, this is the way that it works.

Did I just make myself sound totally foolish?