How do you lead lovingly?

[Miracle Storm]

I know when we are trying to steer people away from sin we feel we are showing our love to them.
But..
Can it go from a loving rebuke to judgement and condemnation?

How do we know when to draw the line.

Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
(Think about above; all sin is equal and none of us our without it..hm..)



So when does one go from lovingly leading their brother/sister away from what they believe is sin and instead judging them all the while not knowing they are condemning theirself in that very same breath..?

how do you lead lovingly? Is there anything you could change?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I know when we are trying to steer people away from sin we feel we are showing our love to them.
But..
Can it go from a loving rebuke to judgement and condemnation?

There is indeed a distinct line between steering and condemning. Condemnation is not our responsibility, for we will not judge those people in the end. That is reserved for Christ alone.

Now, we also need to understand how the two words "judge" and "condemn" are defined in relation to your question. Jesus is recorded to have said in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." So, yes, we can indeed judge others, but by a much higher standard than merely by what we see with our eyes.

Additionally, we don't have the power to condemn, therefore it is a useless and damaging gesture to condemn anyone, for we cannot possibly know what will take place in their hearts up the point of death. Perhaps Christ will eventually reach them.

Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

This is a verse that even unbelievers know and use as a bettering ram to their advantage, along with some professing believers. It is an axiomatic banner of fanfare in order to reduce, if not completely do away with, any and all judgement of sin. However, this verse, when taken out of context, can indeed appear as a contradiction to what Jesus stated above in John 7:24.

What this means is that there are defining limits to our judgements of others. Not one verse in the word of God places our judgement of others completely outside the scope of the authority true believers have been given, by the Lord, to those who truly follow Him. True followers of Christ are led by the Spirit, and thus their judgements eminate from a Divine standard rather than a fleshly standard.

Romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
(Think about above; all sin is equal and none of us our without it..hm..)

The last statement is a gross, although common, misrepresentation of what the context of that passage is saying. It is dealing with the hypocritical aspects of passing judgement upon others when the one issuing the judgement is currently guilty of the same sins. Those verses said not one word against the judgements passed upon others from the framework of what Christ stated in John 7:24.

So when does one go from lovingly leading their brother/sister away from what they believe is sin and instead judging them all the while not knowing they are condemning theirself in that very same breath..?

how do you lead lovingly? Is there anything you could change?

You cannot lead them at all if you do not judge their actions, attitudes, beliefs, or whatever, as being sin. Love is indeed the superior dynamic by which we lead others back to Christ, and thus restore them to the path of truth and holiness. Those who live by the standards of the flesh reject this truth, and they have some slick-sounding reasons for their illogic, but they only show their hatred of God and His instructions to us.

For example, homosexuals want us to completely abstain from the very mandate Christ spoke to us in John 7:24. Does that sound balanced to you? The bottom line simply dictates that we all must pass judgement upon others, but we do not condemn them. If they refuse Godly rebuke of their sin based upon a judgement passed from the standard of God's perfect holiness and written word, then they are to be left to sink or swim in the waters of life, fending for their own survival to the day they breath their last, unless they come around before then.

Prayer is also a powerful tool for touching lives with or without our being in proximity to them. Let the Holy Spirit lead you, and you will not go wrong. Thus, questions like this are non-issues.

BTW

 

[Miracle Storm]

There is indeed a distinct line between steering and condemning. Condemnation is not our responsibility, for we will not judge those people in the end. That is reserved for Christ alone.

Does condemnation occur when others who may or may not be living in sin in some fashion are told they will go to hell if they do not change their ways or if they are told they could not possibly be saved since they are still sinning?
Does God expect us to stop sinning before we are able to be saved, the momment we are saved or do we ever while in this flesh stop sinning?

Now, we also need to understand how the two words "judge" and "condemn" are defined in relation to your question. Jesus is recorded to have said in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." So, yes, we can indeed judge others, but by a much higher standard than merely by what we see with our eyes.

John 7:23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

In this passage Jesus is speaking of the people judging Him because of the "law breaking" they believed he committed by healing someone on the Sabbath.
This means to me that there is more to the law and the intent behind things people may do that may not seem so "holy" to them there pharisees.

Additionally, we don't have the power to condemn, therefore it is a useless and damaging gesture to condemn anyone, for we cannot possibly know what will take place in their hearts up the point of death. Perhaps Christ will eventually reach them.

But how harsh is to harsh is my question..
When has a rebuke gone to far and into condemnation.

the reason I ask this is because there was a time that I would feel so condemned I did not feel worthy to live, I would feel hopeless and ask God why He even made me..It would certainly put a divide in my relationship with God and people who would accuse certainly did not make it any better..

But it does take me back to a Scripture that fits perfectly.
(which Romans 7 prior verses goes into greater detail of how we have been released from the law and written code)
Romans 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This is a verse that even unbelievers know and use as a bettering ram to their advantage, along with some professing believers. It is an axiomatic banner of fanfare in order to reduce, if not completely do away with, any and all judgement of sin. However, this verse, when taken out of context, can indeed appear as a contradiction to what Jesus stated above in John 7:24.

Hm. no it doesn't. Jesus was speaking of them judging Him for healing a man on the Sabbath in the other verse.

What this means is that there are defining limits to our judgements of others. Not one verse in the word of God places our judgement of others completely outside the scope of the authority true believers have been given, by the Lord, to those who truly follow Him. True followers of Christ are led by the Spirit, and thus their judgements eminate from a Divine standard rather than a fleshly standard.
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Hm. I have seen and heard some very condemning statements by "true followers of Christ" so then I wonder if they are allowing themselves to be led my the love of the Holy Spirit or rather their adherence to the law.

The last statement is a gross, although common, misrepresentation of what the context of that passage is saying. It is dealing with the hypocritical aspects of passing judgement upon others when the one issuing the judgement is currently guilty of the same sins. Those verses said not one word against the judgements passed upon others from the framework of what Christ stated in John 7:24.

Are you saying you believe that the Scripture allows you to judge one sin when you are sinning in a different way?
pft. the Scripture comes to mind to remove the plank from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from others..

You cannot lead them at all if you do not judge their actions, attitudes, beliefs, or whatever, as being sin. Love is indeed the superior dynamic by which we lead others back to Christ, and thus restore them to the path of truth and holiness. Those who live by the standards of the flesh reject this truth, and they have some slick-sounding reasons for their illogic, but they only show their hatred of God and His instructions to us.

You do not have to judge their actions as sin to instruct what the law says is sin. The law brings people to Christ and convicts people of their sin, the law however does not redeem them.

For example, homosexuals want us to completely abstain from the very mandate Christ spoke to us in John 7:24. Does that sound balanced to you? The bottom line simply dictates that we all must pass judgement upon others, but we do not condemn them. If they refuse Godly rebuke of their sin based upon a judgement passed from the standard of God's perfect holiness and written word, then they are to be left to sink or swim in the waters of life, fending for their own survival to the day they breath their last, unless they come around before then.

I do not believe you understand the context of John 7.

Prayer is also a powerful tool for touching lives with or without our being in proximity to them. Let the Holy Spirit lead you, and you will not go wrong. Thus, questions like this are non-issues.

BTW

The Holy Spirit does lead me.
But it is an issue if the Holy Spirit leads others differently..hm..

 

[HuntingMan]

1 Corinthians 5 shows us the extent of our authority in 'judging'.

But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
(1Co 5:13 EMTV)
​

Oddly just before that chapter begins Paul asks a very peculiar question.

What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love, and a spirit of gentleness?
(1Co 4:21 EMTV)
​

The purpose of such is to cause repentance and a return to the truth.

This testimony is true; for which cause rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
(Tit 1:13 EMTV)
​

The problem is that on an internet forum, there arent many options

But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a person.
(1Co 5:11 EMTV)
​

 

[Miracle Storm]

1 Corinthians 5 shows us the extent of our authority in 'judging'.

But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
(1Co 5:13 EMTV)
​

In that chapter they are being told Oddly just before that chapter begins Paul asks a very peculiar question.

What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love, and a spirit of gentleness?
(1Co 4:21 EMTV)
​

The purpose of such is to cause repentance and a return to the truth.

This testimony is true; for which cause rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
(Tit 1:13 EMTV)
​

The problem is that on an internet forum, there arent many options

But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a person.
(1Co 5:11 EMTV)
​

These Scriptures are not answering my questions of how you rebuke lovingly instead of stepping over the line into condemnation.

There is no love or guidance in condemnation..

There was a man who had a child out of wedlock, he didn't believe the child was his nor would he take any responsibility for her. He ended up in the same church the baby attended with her mother..The preacher kicked him out and he never returned to church again and NEVER took care of his daughter..
(true story)
Is that the meaning of expel the immoral brother..? Is that love? Is that guidance?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Does condemnation occur when others who may or may not be living in sin in some fashion are told they will go to hell if they do not change their ways or if they are told they could not possibly be saved since they are still sinning?

We know that there are many who attend religious church organizations who will indeed be cast into outer darkness, hell, or whatever one may choose to call it. Many of them are pious and seemingly good people. Some of them perform miracles and even raise the dead, and yet the Lord will reject them and they will be cast into outer darkness. If I hear someone say to another, or others, that they will go to hell if they don't change their ways, well, I take it with a grain of salt. We know that true salvation rests with the Person and in the blood of Christ Jesus. Some may look at me and say that I don't live a holy enough life, and yet I can confess Christ before men from a heart of faith, and He will confess me before the Father. What does it matter to you if you hear some dude tell others that they must change their ways in order to be saved.

Salvation is not a matter of paths or means. If it were, then we would have no need for Christ and what He accomplished on the cross. There are no paths that lead to God...not one. Paths are a means by which we reach a destination under our own strength and power. True salvation is not something we obtain by our own strength or power. It is a gift from the Lord, accepted and embraced by faith.

So, let soap-box speakers talk about others and where they will end up. Most choose the path of destruction, and threats won't turn them. Deep down, they know where they're headed. What matters is where you stand. Right? Stand, and help others to stand who are willing to hear the truth.

Does God expect us to stop sinning before we are able to be saved, the momment we are saved or do we ever while in this flesh stop sinning?

In the life of the true believer, sin is the exception, not the rule. However, the word of God also states that IF we sin, we have an advocate who is with the Father. We no longer focus on sin. Remember the prophet when he stated, "I am undone." There was a man who had been living his life in complete service to God, and yet when he was shown a tiny portion of God's glory, he was given a glimpse of something that provided a glaring contrast to his own holy life. You trust in Christ to make you pure and clean, strive for an ever deeper relationship with Him, and He will take care of the rest.

John 7:23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

In this passage Jesus is speaking of the people judging Him because of the "law breaking" they believed he committed by healing someone on the Sabbath.

But Jesus broke not one of the Laws. He was guilty of breaking the traditions of men that the people thought originated from the Law of God. Not one Law in the written word of God can be shown to stand against healing on the Sabbath. Jesus also stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He also stated that the Father was working, even to that very day. So, what REALLY was at stake in the above passages?

But how harsh is to harsh is my question..
When has a rebuke gone to far and into condemnation.

If you could see the heart of the issuer of the judgement, then you could know. However, you can't see that level. God can, if I were you, I'd leave it to Him.

the reason I ask this is because there was a time that I would feel so condemned I did not feel worthy to live, I would feel hopeless and ask God why He even made me..It would certainly put a divide in my relationship with God and people who would accuse certainly did not make it any better..

Remember this...when someone thinks they have license to touch God's creation with an unholy finger of accusation, they are attempting to usurp what was never theirs for the taking. Leave them in the hands of the Almighty, and He will deal with them. You focus only on what the Lord has set before you to accomplish, ask Him for strength when you need it, and He will take care of all the rest.

Don't let the words of others divide you. You keep your eyes on your Master, and accept only what He says to you. He takes us out to the woodshed sometimes, if we need it. If a man or woman of true love and holiness speaks correction to you, then you will know in your heart it is of God. Otherwise, it is your enemy at work. Don't let the religious control your feelings. Hear the words of the Spirit, which at times comes to us from others, sometimes from His written word, and somtimes directly.

Hm. I have seen and heard some very condemning statements by "true followers of Christ" so then I wonder if they are allowing themselves to be led my the love of the Holy Spirit or rather their adherence to the law.

How do you guage as to if they're "true followers of Christ"? What's the acid test? Again, scripture gives us the answer when it says that we shall know them by their fruits.

Are you saying you believe that the Scripture allows you to judge one sin when you are sinning in a different way?

We judge many things. The central theme of abstaining from judgement is when we do so harshly, or hypocritically. Neither of those sources are of the Spirit of God. Again, John 7:24 clearly states that we judge according to righeous judgement, not by sight. Doing so is not a matter of any sin that may be in our lives. We were not told to judge only from the perspective of a self-led, sinles life. We simply can't do that.

BTW&DM

 

[HuntingMan]

These Scriptures are not answering my questions of how you rebuke lovingly instead of stepping over the line into condemnation.

There is no love or guidance in condemnation..

There was a man who had a child out of wedlock, he didn't believe the child was his nor would he take any responsibility for her. He ended up in the same church the baby attended with her mother..The preacher kicked him out and he never returned to church again and NEVER took care of his daughter..
(true story)
Is that the meaning of expel the immoral brother..? Is that love? Is that guidance?

Well, the post obviously wasnt meant to give the entire scope of instruction.

Honestly, Id have to know a LOT more of the details of your example to know if I agree with the mans being cast out of the church there.
And obviously, removed from that church or not, the man SHOULD have done right by his daughter. Not doing so at any point would make me believe that whomever removed him from the assembly may have had some reason he felt to.

Just some thoughts, but since I dont have enought data, I cant make the call.

I'll say for the record tho, that Im for taking the action at whatever point church leadership would deem it appropriate.

 

[Miracle Storm]

We know that there are many who attend religious church organizations who will indeed be cast into outer darkness, hell, or whatever one may choose to call it. Many of them are pious and seemingly good people. Some of them perform miracles and even raise the dead, and yet the Lord will reject them and they will be cast into outer darkness. If I hear someone say to another, or others, that they will go to hell if they don't change their ways, well, I take it with a grain of salt. We know that true salvation rests with the Person and in the blood of Christ Jesus. Some may look at me and say that I don't live a holy enough life, and yet I can confess Christ before men from a heart of faith, and He will confess me before the Father. What does it matter to you if you hear some dude tell others that they must change their ways in order to be saved.

For multiple reasons. I know that condemnation can put a wedge between a person and their relationship with Christ. I know it can also lead to more harmful things and thoughts. Sometimes people feel it almost impossible to change and condemn theirself for doing it, they do not need more outsiders condemning them. "For what I do I do not want to do"
I say why don't people leave it to the Holy Spirit.. and instead of condemning encourage.
Can you not point out what is sin, but encourage at the same time..?
Or if one already knows they are sinning but can't seem to change their ways how can you help..Do you believe drilling into them what they already know is sin helps them or harms them when they already feel guilt/condemnation from the bondage/sin they are in..

And also to tell someone they must change their ways in order to be saved puts their salvation into their own hands...
We are not saved by our actions and changing our ways IF we were able to do that we would have never needed Christ.
To tell someone their salvation is in their own hands is leading them falsely and down a road of self distruction and failure because they can never succeed on their own.

Salvation is not a matter of paths or means. If it were, then we would have no need for Christ and what He accomplished on the cross. There are no paths that lead to God...not one. Paths are a means by which we reach a destination under our own strength and power. True salvation is not something we obtain by our own strength or power. It is a gift from the Lord, accepted and embraced by faith.

I agree, the ONLY path to Salvation is in Christ.

So, let soap-box speakers talk about others and where they will end up. Most choose the path of destruction, and threats won't turn them. Deep down, they know where they're headed. What matters is where you stand. Right? Stand, and help others to stand who are willing to hear the truth.


In the life of the true believer, sin is the exception, not the rule. However, the word of God also states that IF we sin, we have an advocate who is with the Father. We no longer focus on sin. Remember the prophet when he stated, "I am undone." There was a man who had been living his life in complete service to God, and yet when he was shown a tiny portion of God's glory, he was given a glimpse of something that provided a glaring contrast to his own holy life. You trust in Christ to make you pure and clean, strive for an ever deeper relationship with Him, and He will take care of the rest.

I believe this, but I am speaking of what other Christians do to others with their words. It may not be purposely, they may believe they are guiding them helping them..But I believe some need to know what condemnation really does do to some people who are already trying...and when they feel they are not moving at the speed others expect them to and become "sinless" they begin to try on their own instead of letting the Holy Spirit work in them and this can only lead to failure and hurt I believe.

But Jesus broke not one of the Laws. He was guilty of breaking the traditions of men that the people thought originated from the Law of God. Not one Law in the written word of God can be shown to stand against healing on the Sabbath. Jesus also stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He also stated that the Father was working, even to that very day. So, what REALLY was at stake in the above passages?

I never said He did. Jesus was sinless.
But to the Pharisees, those blind guys, they were finding him guilty by the appearance of what He did instead of what was behind it.
Intentions and what is in a person's heart God knows..we do not.

If you could see the heart of the issuer of the judgement, then you could know. However, you can't see that level. God can, if I were you, I'd leave it to Him.

I am not trying to see into ones heart. If I were that would be a judgement.
...and below this portion you quoted I told you the reason I asked the question.

Remember this...when someone thinks they have license to touch God's creation with an unholy finger of accusation, they are attempting to usurp what was never theirs for the taking. Leave them in the hands of the Almighty, and He will deal with them. You focus only on what the Lord has set before you to accomplish, ask Him for strength when you need it, and He will take care of all the rest.

Yes the Lord will deal with them, but in the meantime I would hope to make some who read this thread think of what they could be doing to someone, their relationship with Christ and their soul - the very core of their being..what harm they could bring and never be the wiser of what they have done to another human being who God loves so..

Don't let the words of others divide you. You keep your eyes on your Master, and accept only what He says to you. He takes us out to the woodshed sometimes, if we need it. If a man or woman of true love and holiness speaks correction to you, then you will know in your heart it is of God. Otherwise, it is your enemy at work. Don't let the religious control your feelings. Hear the words of the Spirit, which at times comes to us from others, sometimes from His written word, and somtimes directly.

Yes I always tell people conviction is from the Holy Spirit, condemnation if from the enemy...But a heart can still be trampled even knowing this truth.

I know one man who has admitted to me he goes to bed everynight and prays for God not to let him wake up , something like, if there is no hope for him...It is heartbreaking.. (Imagine the condemnation someone like that feels, but at the same time the yearning for Salvation and God's love.)
He also went through a phase where he had thought he blashpemied the Holy Spirit and everyday was obsessed with the thought of hell and lived in fear..(I know this went on for atleast six month probably longer)every now and again he will think he has done it still, but less than before..
He lives in sin and cannot escape, he is a crack addict and has been since he was about 16.

How do you guage as to if they're "true followers of Christ"? What's the acid test?

I do not, nor will I ever attempt to, that is why I used quotations.

Again, scripture gives us the answer when it says that we shall know them by their fruits.

That is another Scripture many use that make people feel like they are not saved, or are not far enough along.
People are all at different levels in their Salvation so that Scripture is a tough one to use.
Some may have just planted the seed for their "fruit" and yet still going through a dry season...another may have the tree, but not yet in bloom..
I am bad at analogies, but I hope you understand what I am saying when a measure such as "their fruit" can make one feel they are not where they are supposed to be or even worse make them feel they are not even saved...
A person who really loves Christ, and I mean truly loves Him who ends up feeling they are not really saved can go so far as wanting to die...because to them life is not worth living if they do not have Him.

I certainly feel life would not be worth living without Christ..
What we say and how we guide can do great damage to someone that is the point I am trying to get across.

We judge many things. The central theme of abstaining from judgement is when we do so harshly, or hypocritically. Neither of those sources are of the Spirit of God. Again, John 7:24 clearly states that we judge according to righeous judgement, not by sight. Doing so is not a matter of any sin that may be in our lives. We were not told to judge only from the perspective of a self-led, sinles life. We simply can't do that.

BTW&DM

I believe we should try refrain from judging someone in our hearts, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one..

 

[Miracle Storm]

Well, the post obviously wasnt meant to give the entire scope of instruction.

Honestly, Id have to know a LOT more of the details of your example to know if I agree with the mans being cast out of the church there.
And obviously, removed from that church or not, the man SHOULD have done right by his daughter. Not doing so at any point would make me believe that whomever removed him from the assembly may have had some reason he felt to.

Just some thoughts, but since I dont have enought data, I cant make the call.

I'll say for the record tho, that Im for taking the action at whatever point church leadership would deem it appropriate.

Well let's just say it's personal and I don't even know all the details myself..(his biological "daughter" has a dad though)

but it makes one think what would have happened if he hadn't been kicked out of church....I dunno.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

For multiple reasons. I know that condemnation can put a wedge between a person and their relationship with Christ.

Yes. Judgements based upon fleshly origins do indeed get in the way of one's relationship with the Lord.

I say why don't people leave it to the Holy Spirit.. and instead of condemning encourage.

We are nowhere told to never judge at any time, from any basis. Taking what ALL scriptre says about judging is how we glean the totality of God's thoughts in this topic.

Besides, I don't think any of us can speak for those who live spiritually imbalanced lives. They exist, and are therefore a part of creation. They are in the hands of the Most High, and therefore not a force with which I have been empowered to intentionally seek out. Do you feel that you have been called by the Lord to go after such...to seek them out and ?

Can you not point out what is sin, but encourage at the same time..?

Encouragement is not some magical formula ensuring success. The fact that one has the courage to confront sin in the life of another speaks volumes about the dedication and love one has for another. It's also the duty of abeliever:

Ezek 3:18-19
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

It's granted that there are many who judge from the wrong basis. We deal with them as we run across them. Otherwise, the Lord will deal with them according to His own will. This is why I asked as to if you have been commissioned by the Lord to seek such people out.

Or if one already knows they are sinning but can't seem to change their ways how can you help..Do you believe drilling into them what they already know is sin helps them or harms them when they already feel guilt/condemnation from the bondage/sin they are in..

This is answered in Ezekiel 3, quoted above.

To tell someone their salvation is in their own hands is leading them falsely and down a road of self distruction and failure because they can never succeed on their own.

Perhaps you're creating a level of complexity to salvation than what is real. Salvation is a gift, and thus a choice the individual must make as to whether he or she will accept it or not.

I agree, the ONLY path to Salvation is in Christ.

No! There is no path to Christ. He is the WAY, not a path. A path speaks of something we can traverse by our own strength and power. We cannot attain salvation by our own strength. I was hoping you would see the difference. The unbelieving world talks about there being many paths to Heaven. That's apipe dream. Paths simply don't exist. The WAY is that which is outside our ability to attain on our own. It is by faith, not by sight, such as traversing a path. Words mean things, so we must be careful as to what words we use, otherwise we are little more than willing accomplises to the falsehoods of this world.

I believe this, but I am speaking of what other Christians do to others with their words.

How do you define the term Christian"?

Yes I always tell people conviction is from the Holy Spirit, condemnation if from the enemy...But a heart can still be trampled even knowing this truth.

That's why I drew a distinc line of demarkation between condemnation and judging. They're not the same thing.

BTW&DM

 

[MarkSB]

Well let's just say it's personal and I don't even know all the details myself..(his biological "daughter" has a dad though)

but it makes one think what would have happened if he hadn't been kicked out of church....I dunno.

But if he knew it was his daughter and didn't take responsibility for her, that's pretty bad on his part. You wouldn't be doing him a favor by saying it's OK and going along with it. I understand your concern but people still make their choices.

 

[Miracle Storm]

Yes. Judgements based upon fleshly origins do indeed get in the way of one's relationship with the Lord.



We are nowhere told to never judge at any time, from any basis. Taking what ALL scriptre says about judging is how we glean the totality of God's thoughts in this topic.

I think you are totally missing the point of this thread.
The thread is how to lead lovingly, rebuke...without making the person feel judged. YOU are not the judge of a person's Salvation and so therefore should NOT be making people feel as though you are or as though you know the outcome of what is to come. Because their life is ultimately in God's hands...But harsh words can drive a soul away from relationship with God..There in lies the point..How do YOU lead lovingly?

Besides, I don't think any of us can speak for those who live spiritually imbalanced lives. They exist, and are therefore a part of creation. They are in the hands of the Most High, and therefore not a force with which I have been empowered to intentionally seek out. Do you feel that you have been called by the Lord to go after such...to seek them out and ?

Yes I feel we are to seek people out..."seek them out and ?"
Are you serious? How about seek them out and show the love of Christ within us...?

Encouragement is not some magical formula ensuring success. The fact that one has the courage to confront sin in the life of another speaks volumes about the dedication and love one has for another. It's also the duty of abeliever:

Ezek 3:18-19
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

A person is saved through Christ. It is not how it was in the old Testament. I suggest giving them the truth of Jesus and if they deny Him the blood will not be on your hands..

It's granted that there are many who judge from the wrong basis. We deal with them as we run across them. Otherwise, the Lord will deal with them according to His own will. This is why I asked as to if you have been commissioned by the Lord to seek such people out.

I dunno, possibly.
I used to be one of those people, but then God showed me the error in my ways. Perhaps he now wills to use me to help others as he has called me to help others who are living now what I used to live in other areas of my life.

This is answered in Ezekiel 3, quoted above.



Perhaps you're creating a level of complexity to salvation than what is real. Salvation is a gift, and thus a choice the individual must make as to whether he or she will accept it or not.

Perhaps you have NO clue what I am speaking about in this thread.

But yes Salvation IS a gift. You can however choose to deny that gift.

No! There is no path to Christ. He is the WAY, not a path. A path speaks of something we can traverse by our own strength and power. We cannot attain salvation by our own strength. I was hoping you would see the difference. The unbelieving world talks about there being many paths to Heaven. That's apipe dream. Paths simply don't exist. The WAY is that which is outside our ability to attain on our own. It is by faith, not by sight, such as traversing a path. Words mean things, so we must be careful as to what words we use, otherwise we are little more than willing accomplises to the falsehoods of this world.

lol
Talk about mincing words..oh my...

here ya go.
http://www.sensagent.com/alexandria-online/getDataAlexandriaOnline.jsp?w=way&sl=en&tl1=en&dl=en
synonyms for WAY, I believe you will find one of them to be PATH.

and here go go definitions of path..
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/path
I believe you will find one is WAY.

There is one Way, one Path, one Truth, one Door, one Gate, one Hope one Salvation and it is only IN Christ.

How do you define the term Christian"?

Really? Well I'll keep it short and simple for you...SAVED

That's why I drew a distinc line of demarkation between condemnation and judging. They're not the same thing.

BTW&DM

Read it again, I don't think you got it.
"
Yes I always tell people conviction is from the Holy Spirit, condemnation if from the enemy...But a heart can still be trampled even knowing this truth."

 

[Hentenza]

I know when we are trying to steer people away from sin we feel we are showing our love to them.
But..
Can it go from a loving rebuke to judgement and condemnation?

How do we know when to draw the line.

Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
(Think about above; all sin is equal and none of us our without it..hm..)



So when does one go from lovingly leading their brother/sister away from what they believe is sin and instead judging them all the while not knowing they are condemning theirself in that very same breath..?

how do you lead lovingly? Is there anything you could change?

There is absolutely no benefit from being judgmental and unloving when teaching and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But we have to be firm because in some cases salvation is at stake.

As Christians, the two things we can do is to live according to His Word and grow our own knowledge of Him. Christ said, “let your light shine before men…” (Matthew 5:16). This means that we should live and act in a way that supports the Gospel. We should also arm ourselves with knowledge, both of the Gospel (Ephesians 6:10-17) and of the world around us. 1 Peter 3:15 says: “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.” All we can do is live and teach as Christ would and let Him take care of the rest.

We can't force anyone to believe anything they don’t want to believe. No matter what the evidence, no matter what the argument, people will believe what they want to believe (Luke 12:54-56). But conviction is not a Christian’s job. The Holy Spirit convicts people (John 14:16-17), and they choose whether or not to believe and listen. What we can do is present ourselves in a way that is as Christ-like as possible.

 

[Miracle Storm]

There is absolutely no benefit from being judgmental and unloving when teaching and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But we have to be firm because in some cases salvation is at stake.

How firm is to firm though and should it differ with those who are saved verses those who are not yet?
I believe OSAS, but I do believe sin still causes people pain regardless and pushes them away from where they could be in Christ and from God's plans for them..
So of course I would like to steer even those who are saved and sinning away from sin, but I believe we have to do this with love.
I don't just mean we say we are doing it in love because people can say they are doing it out of love and act like total jerks, (i know i have)
But real true love 1 corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails

As Christians, the two things we can do is to live according to His Word and grow our own knowledge of Him. Christ said, “let your light shine before men…” (Matthew 5:16). This means that we should live and act in a way that supports the Gospel. We should also arm ourselves with knowledge, both of the Gospel (Ephesians 6:10-17) and of the world around us. 1 Peter 3:15 says: “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.” All we can do is live and teach as Christ would and let Him take care of the rest.

We can't force anyone to believe anything they don’t want to believe. No matter what the evidence, no matter what the argument, people will believe what they want to believe (Luke 12:54-56). But conviction is not a Christian’s job. The Holy Spirit convicts people (John 14:16-17), and they choose whether or not to believe and listen. What we can do is present ourselves in a way that is as Christ-like as possible.

amen.

How would you think to deal with someone who is let's say a drug addict..?
Applying the Scripture, "I do what I do not want to do"
Or anyone that feels not normal conviction but condemnation, and does not know how or just can't stop sinning.
They repent and repent and repent to the point of exhaustion and hopelessness..for them and the people around them..
What can we do?

 

[Hentenza]

How firm is to firm though and should it differ with those who are saved verses those who are not yet?
I believe OSAS, but I do believe sin still causes people pain regardless and pushes them away from where they could be in Christ and from God's plans for them..
So of course I would like to steer even those who are saved and sinning away from sin, but I believe we have to do this with love.
I don't just mean we say we are doing it in love because people can say they are doing it out of love and act like total jerks, (i know i have)
But real true love 1 corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails

I find that IRL is much easier than in an internet community like this site. As a Deacon in my church I can teach those that need it but I can see them, pray with them, cry with them, hug them. Basically, I can see and feel the reality of their present situation. I have been firm but loving in situations that required it.
How firm depends in the situation but we can still be firm and loving at the same time. There is no reason to belittle or judge anyone. I am not going to fall into heresy or false teaching so at one point I am going to shake my sandals and let the person come to his/her own conclusion. After all, I trust God with all my heart and soul.

How would you think to deal with someone who is let's say a drug addict..?
Applying the Scripture, "I do what I do not want to do"
Or anyone that feels not normal conviction but condemnation, and does not know how or just can't stop sinning.
They repent and repent and repent to the point of exhaustion and hopelessness..for them and the people around them..
What can we do?

One of my ministries it with Lifeway which is a drug rehab center. You can certainly see Satan's work there. The addicts there have taken the first step (some by choice others by situation) but is hard to kick such a habit. We have to be firm and not fall for their lies (which they have mastered) so at times we can get into controlled confrontations to help the addict. Reality can suck at times but we can't loose sight of the fact that we are not responsible for their addiction. We have to be as loving as we can but can't let them get away with anything. It is just too important. If I can save one I have done God's bidding. It is hard to see so many fall back into the temptation and even worse see some end up in jail or dead. All we can do is rejoice in the healing power of Christ and do our best to present ourselves as Christ would want us to.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I think you are totally missing the point of this thread. The thread is how to lead lovingly, rebuke...without making the person feel judged.

What does it mean to "feel judged"? Can you define that for clarity?

When dealing with human feelings, we're obviously dealing with an inferior element of our humanity. I assume you know the old saying, "You can't please everyone all the time." Well, there's some wisdom to that. Someone may say something that I may have a particular feeling about. That doesn't mean that my feeling about it is at all in line with the true intent of the other's words, but the feeling is there all the same. We don't always have control over all our feelings about things, therefore many of our felings are prone to gross error.

If my rebuke against a sin in the life another makes him/her feel condemned, then such is the result of their own conscience, or perhaps a confirmation from the Holy Spirit. This will at times happen, no matter how much love I have expressed in my rebuke.

YOU are not the judge of a person's Salvation and so therefore should NOT be making people feel as though you are or as though you know the outcome of what is to come.

This is completely out of step with what I've actually said. I agreed with you that condemnation is indeed not a power we have been handed. Why will you not take "yes" for an answer?

But harsh words can drive a soul away from relationship with God..

I disagree. No man or woman has the power to pluck a living soul from the hand of Christ. If a soul departs from Christ, it is by their own choice. We ALL were given the promise that we would not ever be tempted beyond our means to resist. If a soul refuses to resist, but rather chooses to walk away from Christ, then that soul has intentionally refused the Lord and His sustaining power. They leave because of something already resident within them before any rebuke ever came their way. So, you either believe what the Lord said about this issue, or you do not. This all is an issue to you either because you appear to not be aware of what the Lord has already said about all this, or you just want to beat a dead horse for its own sake.

We are told, however, that we can cause a child to sin, which Jesus stated is a grievous action on the part of the adult doing such.

There in lies the point..How do YOU lead lovingly?

By doing so according to the words of Christ. There are times when He spoke of men being vipers, and white-washed sepulchres filled with dead men's bones. Such people still exist today. Loving leadership is already a part of the true believer's makeup. If one departs from that love, then the problem is theirs, not mine. I will do what I can to restore them in love, but there may come a day when strong rebuke and judgement must come in order to shock them back to reality.

Hypotheticals are a penny a thousand in worth. If you have a specific case in point you wish to ask about, then why not simply ask it? We could go through a myriad of hypotheticals, and never arrive at any consensus of an answer, given the theoretical and subjective nature of hypotheticals.

BTW&DM

 

[Miracle Storm]

What does it mean to "feel judged"? Can you define that for clarity?

I am speaking of condemnation which can produce a myriad of feelings; such as rejection, fear, hate, sucidal thoughts and/or tendencies, a divide between the person and God, unrelenting guilt, worthlessness, etc..

When dealing with human feelings, we're obviously dealing with an inferior element of our humanity. I assume you know the old saying, "You can't please everyone all the time." Well, there's some wisdom to that. Someone may say something that I may have a particular feeling about. That doesn't mean that my feeling about it is at all in line with the true intent of the other's words, but the feeling is there all the same. We don't always have control over all our feelings about things, therefore many of our felings are prone to gross error.

Yes.
I am not sure I know your point here..

If my rebuke against a sin in the life another makes him/her feel condemned, then such is the result of their own conscience, or perhaps a confirmation from the Holy Spirit. This will at times happen, no matter how much love I have expressed in my rebuke.

No. It will not. Feelings of condemnation are NOT from the Holy Spirit..conviction is.

There is a way to rebuke, with gentleness and respect.
1 peter 3:15

This is completely out of step with what I've actually said. I agreed with you that condemnation is indeed not a power we have been handed. Why will you not take "yes" for an answer?

I have been wondering the same thing about you..When I agree with you, you still debate me..
Maybe we are having some sort of miscommunication going on here..

I disagree. No man or woman has the power to pluck a living soul from the hand of Christ.

No one said you could pluck them out of His hand. But a person's words can cause people to build a wall, not only between themself and other people...But between them and God..Yes that affects their relationship with Him....and even still, a person not yet saved who knows how far away we could possibly drive them from Christ with to harsh of words..

If a soul departs from Christ, it is by their own choice. We ALL were given the promise that we would not ever be tempted beyond our means to resist. If a soul refuses to resist, but rather chooses to walk away from Christ, then that soul has intentionally refused the Lord and His sustaining power.

Funny that...Matthew 18: 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!
I submit from the above Scripture that not only can we cause others to be tempted, but can also cause them to sin..

They leave because of something already resident within them before any rebuke ever came their way. So, you either believe what the Lord said about this issue, or you do not.

Oh I believe what the Lord says, but that doesn't necessarily coincide with what you say.

This all is an issue to you either because you appear to not be aware of what the Lord has already said about all this, or you just want to beat a dead horse for its own sake.

Oh please. Don't presume to know my intentions! It appears very judgemental.

We are told, however, that we can cause a child to sin, which Jesus stated is a grievous action on the part of the adult doing such.

I do not believe for one momment that the verse only means that children can be caused to sin. Children are not the only ones who can be led astray by others.

By doing so according to the words of Christ. There are times when He spoke of men being vipers, and white-washed sepulchres filled with dead men's bones. Such people still exist today. Loving leadership is already a part of the true believer's makeup. If one departs from that love, then the problem is theirs, not mine. I will do what I can to restore them in love, but there may come a day when strong rebuke and judgement must come in order to shock them back to reality.

Hypotheticals are a penny a thousand in worth. If you have a specific case in point you wish to ask about, then why not simply ask it?

I have not once, not twice, but I believe three times in this very thread..but you have'nt said boo to it..

We could go through a myriad of hypotheticals, and never arrive at any consensus of an answer, given the theoretical and subjective nature of hypotheticals.

BTW&DM

Hypotheticals can be quite similar to parables I believe if they are used the right way..
But where here do you see a hypothetical situation in this thread?

 

[Miracle Storm]

I find that IRL is much easier than in an internet community like this site. As a Deacon in my church I can teach those that need it but I can see them, pray with them, cry with them, hug them. Basically, I can see and feel the reality of their present situation. I have been firm but loving in situations that required it.
How firm depends in the situation but we can still be firm and loving at the same time. There is no reason to belittle or judge anyone. I am not going to fall into heresy or false teaching so at one point I am going to shake my sandals and let the person come to his/her own conclusion. After all, I trust God with all my heart and soul.



One of my ministries it with Lifeway which is a drug rehab center. You can certainly see Satan's work there. The addicts there have taken the first step (some by choice others by situation) but is hard to kick such a habit. We have to be firm and not fall for their lies (which they have mastered) so at times we can get into controlled confrontations to help the addict. Reality can suck at times but we can't loose sight of the fact that we are not responsible for their addiction. We have to be as loving as we can but can't let them get away with anything. It is just too important. If I can save one I have done God's bidding. It is hard to see so many fall back into the temptation and even worse see some end up in jail or dead. All we can do is rejoice in the healing power of Christ and do our best to present ourselves as Christ would want us to.

I did not know this about you bro.
I hope you don't mind if we discuss this further in private..is a bit personal for here. Expect to be hearing from me Henry.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I am speaking of condemnation which can produce a myriad of feelings; such as rejection, fear, hate, sucidal thoughts and/or tendencies, a divide between the person and God, unrelenting guilt, worthlessness, etc..

I don't disagree with you. Condemnation is indeed wrong for anyone to perpetrate against another. Again, please take "yes" for an answer.

I am not sure I know your point here..

Simply that you place much stock in human emotions and feelings. Hollywood, romance novels, and many other sources by which we are all bombarded in our culture, teach that we all should follow our 'feelings' and listen to our 'emotions'. The emotional and feeling part of our humanity is an inferior guide. Our feelings and emotions change from moment to moment each and every day. So, feelings and emotions are not credible guides for our lives.

Let's use one of your hypotheticals: We have someone who has just been seemingly condemned for their sin, and they feel anger toward God and the world, and they feel condemned for reasons that none of us can possible explain with any degree of rationality. So, they climb out onto the ledge of the tenth floor, and leap off into the air. Who is to ultimately blame? Was it the person who seemingly condemned, or was it God's fault, or was it the person who took the leap out into thin air?

No matter how you slice it and dice it all up, the final responsibility rests with the one on the receiving end of the rebuke/condemnation. Granted, justifying condemnation is not a part of this mix. The one on the receiving end of the rebuke/condemnation FELT condemnation, so they acted foolishly on that feeling.

Again, I agree that anyone condemning anyone else is wrong, so let's allow that dead dog to rest in peace.

How about this hypothetical: Your so-called "pastor" and his wife join up with a wife-swapping ring in your religious church organization, thus his sleeping around with other men's wives, etc., (which actually did happen here in my home city, and was publicized on the front page of the local newspaper for us all to read). Now, did he and his wife make the decision to join the ring just spur-of-the-moment, or was there something such as lust already going on in their lives leading up to their agreement to join such a ring?

Quite frankly, he and his wife already had deep-seated sin in full sprout deep within their souls for them both to have actively particiapted in such a horrid activity, especially for more than two years. The same can be applied to the topic of condemnation. The alleged believer who condemns another, does so from the foundation of something already wrong in their lives. The one on the receiving end of the condemnation so easily distonacing themselves from God and others already had some things gravely wrong in their lives for them to react in a way that they self-destruct, or whatever else they may do...even distancing themselves from others. Nobody suddenly withdraws from all others without there already having been some sort of mix already in place for a catalyst such as verbal condemnation to push them further into rejection and isolation...and even suicide.

Just an observation.

No. It will not. Feelings of condemnation are NOT from the Holy Spirit..conviction is.

Not in all cases. The one who has intentionally walked away from the Lord in order to better enjoy the false pleasures of this world can indeed be assaulted with a deep feeling if condemnation from the Holy Spirit. Why? Simply that they have placed their eternal future in grave jeaopardy, and thus have set their own feet upon the path of ultimate condemnation and self-destruction if they choose to not return to the Lord. The Lord used a man like pharaoh to His glory, so He can certainly use a feeling of condemnation to demonstrate to a soul that they are in grave danger of something they don't fully understand.

There is a way to rebuke, with gentleness and respect.

Sure there is, and it sometimes works, but not always.

...a person's words can cause people to build a wall, not only between themself and other people...But between them and God..

My friend, please don't belittle the power of God...and yes, that's exactly what you're doing. No man or woman can possibly foil God's ultimate plans, especially for another soul. Our harsh words toward another can indeed affect them, and maybe even cause them to build even higher walls than were already built, but they can never be walls that enfeeble the power of God.

I can't begin to count how many times I've heard the lament, "Great harm has been done to the cause of Christ by so and so." That is utter foolishness. No mortal or immortal has the power to overcome God's plan for even the life of a sparrow. The aggressor will indeed be dealt with as God sees fit, but such an aggressor has no greater power to cause difficulty to God's ultimate plans than your or I can force God to accept Satan as His equal.

Yes that affects their relationship with Him..

The effects we may have on another that are contrary to God's plan for them are only temporary. In the end, we don't have the power to bring His plans down into the dust. God is not so feeble. I will agree with you that any negative effect we may have upon another because of our wrongdoing is indeed sin on our part, but we can also rest assured in the midst of any honest mistakes we may make toward another never do irreparable damage to God's ultimate plan for a life.

..and even still, a person not yet saved who knows how far away we could possibly drive them from Christ with to harsh of words..

And yet we don't have the power to drive another too far from Christ that He cannot reach them.

I submit from the above Scripture that not only can we cause others to be tempted, but can also cause them to sin..

There's nothing so remarkable about this submission that it renders God powerless in the life of another simply by what we may do or not do. Causing another to sin is indeed a grievous thing, and He would deal with us accordingly, but His ultimate plan for that other soul is never placed beyond the reach of His ultimate accomplishments in their life.

I think we both agree on all these things. It's just a matter of bringing more of the realities, thus far not addressed, into the scope of our conversation.

Oh please. Don't presume to know my intentions! It appears very judgemental.

I judged your words, not you personally. You too have judged my words, even to the extent of ignoring my "yes" in agreement with you.

I do not believe for one momment that the verse only means that children can be caused to sin. Children are not the only ones who can be led astray by others.

Once again you missed the point. That verse states quite clearly that causing a child to sin is far more grievous, and that doing so is cause to hang a millstone about one's neck and being cast into the sea.

For example, when a dad tells his bully son to go ahead and whoop another kid to show that he's not ever going to be stood up to, well, that's a grievous sin on the part of that dad for instructing his son to sin, thus that dad placing his own soul in grave danger of God's judgement. Dare you go up to him and rebuke him in love, and he'll flatten your nose for you. Rationalize with him what he told his boy to do, and he'll flatten your nose. There are times that no amount of love will ever reach that kind of man, for such men undertand only one thing....violence.

If I go to him and beat him to a pulp myself, and then reach out to him with loving rebuke, he might be more receptive after finding himself face to face with a more powerful physical force than himself, therefore his feelings about the whole situation might indeed be different. I'm not justifying violence, but rather that the Lord can use many things with wich we all may disagree. That speaks of His sovereignty, without limitations.

Hypotheticals can be quite similar to parables I believe if they are used the right way..

I've heard people state that Jesus' parables were hypotheticals. As for myself, I personally believe that when He stated, "There once was a man...," I believe He was speaking factually rather than hypothetically. After all, no falsehood ever left His lips, so when He said, "There once was a man...," He meant what He said quite literally.

BTW&DM

 

[Miracle Storm]

I don't disagree with you. Condemnation is indeed wrong for anyone to perpetrate against another. Again, please take "yes" for an answer.

What do you mean, "take yes for an answer"?
You had asked me what I believed was "feeling judged"

Simply that you place much stock in human emotions and feelings.

That is your opinion

Hollywood, romance novels, and many other sources by which we are all bombarded in our culture, teach that we all should follow our 'feelings' and listen to our 'emotions'. The emotional and feeling part of our humanity is an inferior guide.

It may very well be, but that doesn't change the fact that many human beings rely on their feelings to guide them. I do not deny that in alot of cases that is a mistake on their part, but it occurs often.. And I am sure on occasion your feelings guide you whether you admit it or not.

Our feelings and emotions change from moment to moment each and every day. So, feelings and emotions are not credible guides for our lives.

I do not disagree, take "yes" for an answer..
However alot of people are guided by their feelings and emotions and we should, we must take that into consieration if we really want to help someone.

Let's use one of your hypotheticals: We have someone who has just been seemingly condemned for their sin, and they feel anger toward God and the world, and they feel condemned for reasons that none of us can possible explain with any degree of rationality. So, they climb out onto the ledge of the tenth floor, and leap off into the air. Who is to ultimately blame? Was it the person who seemingly condemned, or was it God's fault, or was it the person who took the leap out into thin air?

I never spoke of anyone "taking a leap off the tenth floor"
I spoke of condemnation causing feelings of suicidal thoughs/tendencies and other emotions. It is not a hypothetical, I have been through it before.

No matter how you slice it and dice it all up, the final responsibility rests with the one on the receiving end of the rebuke/condemnation.

Why are you trying to push blame all the way around. This thread is not about blame. It is about preventing the feeling of condemnation to begin with. It is about love, guidance and God's will.

Granted, justifying condemnation is not a part of this mix. The one on the receiving end of the rebuke/condemnation FELT condemnation, so they acted foolishly on that feeling.

You may call it foolish, but that doesn't excuse the person who done the "condemning.
BTW a simple rebuke is much different than condemnation.

Again, I agree that anyone condemning anyone else is wrong, so let's allow that dead dog to rest in peace.

Good glad you agree.

How about this hypothetical: Your so-called "pastor" and his wife join up with a wife-swapping ring in your religious church organization, thus his sleeping around with other men's wives, etc., (which actually did happen here in my home city, and was publicized on the front page of the local newspaper for us all to read). Now, did he and his wife make the decision to join the ring just spur-of-the-moment, or was there something such as lust already going on in their lives leading up to their agreement to join such a ring?

Quite frankly, he and his wife already had deep-seated sin in full sprout deep within their souls for them both to have actively particiapted in such a horrid activity, especially for more than two years. The same can be applied to the topic of condemnation. The alleged believer who condemns another, does so from the foundation of something already wrong in their lives. The one on the receiving end of the condemnation so easily distonacing themselves from God and others already had some things gravely wrong in their lives for them to react in a way that they self-destruct, or whatever else they may do...even distancing themselves from others. Nobody suddenly withdraws from all others without there already having been some sort of mix already in place for a catalyst such as verbal condemnation to push them further into rejection and isolation...and even suicide.

Of course there could be preexisting problems...but do you want to be the one to push them over the proverbial ledge.

...and why are you using hypotheticals when you have showed so much dislike for them..
I have not used hypothetical scenarios in this thread..

just an observation

Just an observation.



Not in all cases. The one who has intentionally walked away from the Lord in order to better enjoy the false pleasures of this world can indeed be assaulted with a deep feeling if condemnation from the Holy Spirit. Why? Simply that they have placed their eternal future in grave jeaopardy, and thus have set their own feet upon the path of ultimate condemnation and self-destruction if they choose to not return to the Lord. The Lord used a man like pharaoh to His glory, so He can certainly use a feeling of condemnation to demonstrate to a soul that they are in grave danger of something they don't fully understand.



Sure there is, and it sometimes works, but not always.



My friend, please don't belittle the power of God...and yes, that's exactly what you're doing. No man or woman can possibly foil God's ultimate plans, especially for another soul. Our harsh words toward another can indeed affect them, and maybe even cause them to build even higher walls than were already built, but they can never be walls that enfeeble the power of God.

I can't begin to count how many times I've heard the lament, "Great harm has been done to the cause of Christ by so and so." That is utter foolishness. No mortal or immortal has the power to overcome God's plan for even the life of a sparrow. The aggressor will indeed be dealt with as God sees fit, but such an aggressor has no greater power to cause difficulty to God's ultimate plans than your or I can force God to accept Satan as His equal.



The effects we may have on another that are contrary to God's plan for them are only temporary. In the end, we don't have the power to bring His plans down into the dust. God is not so feeble. I will agree with you that any negative effect we may have upon another because of our wrongdoing is indeed sin on our part, but we can also rest assured in the midst of any honest mistakes we may make toward another never do irreparable damage to God's ultimate plan for a life.



And yet we don't have the power to drive another too far from Christ that He cannot reach them.



There's nothing so remarkable about this submission that it renders God powerless in the life of another simply by what we may do or not do. Causing another to sin is indeed a grievous thing, and He would deal with us accordingly, but His ultimate plan for that other soul is never placed beyond the reach of His ultimate accomplishments in their life.

I think we both agree on all these things. It's just a matter of bringing more of the realities, thus far not addressed, into the scope of our conversation.



I judged your words, not you personally. You too have judged my words, even to the extent of ignoring my "yes" in agreement with you.



Once again you missed the point. That verse states quite clearly that causing a child to sin is far more grievous, and that doing so is cause to hang a millstone about one's neck and being cast into the sea.

For example, when a dad tells his bully son to go ahead and whoop another kid to show that he's not ever going to be stood up to, well, that's a grievous sin on the part of that dad for instructing his son to sin, thus that dad placing his own soul in grave danger of God's judgement. Dare you go up to him and rebuke him in love, and he'll flatten your nose for you. Rationalize with him what he told his boy to do, and he'll flatten your nose. There are times that no amount of love will ever reach that kind of man, for such men undertand only one thing....violence.

If I go to him and beat him to a pulp myself, and then reach out to him with loving rebuke, he might be more receptive after finding himself face to face with a more powerful physical force than himself, therefore his feelings about the whole situation might indeed be different. I'm not justifying violence, but rather that the Lord can use many things with wich we all may disagree. That speaks of His sovereignty, without limitations.



I've heard people state that Jesus' parables were hypotheticals. As for myself, I personally believe that when He stated, "There once was a man...," I believe He was speaking factually rather than hypothetically. After all, no falsehood ever left His lips, so when He said, "There once was a man...," He meant what He said quite literally.

BTW&DM

I will answer the remainder of this in the evening. I have to go right now or I will be late.

g'day to you.