How do you keep the Sabbath?

[- DRA -]

But the law was never done away with, it was not destroyed nor rejected as if it were flawed in any way or such. The law still exists, but as I mentioned it is fulfilled. Done away with and fulfilled are two different words with different meanings in the English language.

The law still exists but not as a school teacher for the Jews to follow and it was never meant for the Christian to follow. It exists as a Law that only one could fulfill and thus it is complete. What the law (and the profits) actually did is validate the ministry of Jesus Christ since He was the only one to abide in the Law and thus fulfill it which made Him the master of it.

Now when a person comes to Christ they are not under the Law but under Christ who fulfilled the law for us and through him we are accounted as having the Law fulfilled. So we may not live by the Law which is attached to the Sabbath, but in Christ who fulfilled the law in Him we live the Sabbath daily for we have entered into His rest.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

I opened a thread about Bible Interpretation based on Matthew 4:5-7. In essence, I believe Jesus teaches us in that text that the truth will harmonize between passages of Scripture. You are invited to join that discussion. Perhaps in that thread, or this thread (your choice), you can explain how your understanding of Matthew 5:17-18 harmonizes with this text from Hebrews 8:

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Another relevant passage is Romans 15:4. The old writings are there for our learning -- not our law.

 

[Psalms34]

I opened a thread about Bible Interpretation based on Matthew 4:5-7. In essence, I believe Jesus teaches us in that text that the truth will harmonize between passages of Scripture. You are invited to join that discussion. Perhaps in that thread, or this thread (your choice), you can explain how your understanding of Matthew 5:17-18 harmonizes with this text from Hebrews 8:

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Another relevant passage is Romans 15:4. The old writings are there for our learning -- not our law.

Yes, concerning Hebrews 8, this is directed towards the house of Israel, for the Jews. Much of this has to do with prophetic interpretations such as from Ezekiel’s writings (ch 36, 37, 38 etc&#8230. Lets never confuse the Church with the Jews, God has a plan for His bride the Church (Gentile and messianic Jew now members of the Church) as well as a plan for the Jews (house of Israel) which is unfolding still and has yet to come to complete fulfillment, until everything is accomplished. We certainly are in the New Covenant as believers and followers of Christ, but this is still an unfolding plan that has yet to be drawn to its conclusion in which such prophecies I just mentioned in Ezekiel are fulfilled and the Jews (full house of Israel) are all brought into the new covenant which we are already the recipients of.

 

[StevenL]

The "list" wasn't intended to tell you what you are obligated to do on the first (?) of the week. I posted the list for consideration about what the first (?) of the week points to.

Now, since Jesus commanded that we observe the Lord's Supper (Matthew 26:26-29; 1 Corinthians 11:17-34), I think we should consider the scriptural evidence that discusses when the disciples observed it i.e. an approved example. Do you agree?

BTW, I suggest also considering 1 Cor. 16:1 along with verse 2.

Now, back to the Sabbath. Do you find any evidence the disciples assembled on the Sabbath day? Wouldn't the Sabbath be later in the week versus the first of the week?

I don't know of any evidence that they, as a matter of course or of tradition, assembled on the seventh day or on the first of the week. They went into the synagogues in the Gentile cities where the Jews met on the sabbath to preach the good news. But that's still just a Jewish thing.

I've never been convinced that, because it says that they gathered on the first of the week "to break bread", that they were observing the Lords Supper at that time. Breaking bread could (and does at times) just mean they were eating a meal together. No doubt they did that a lot. As far as considering it "an approved example", I suppose one could do that if they wished and follow it with great benefit. I also think one could decide to worship and break bread and collect money for the needs of saints on say, Thursday night regularly to great benefit also....with the approval of God.

There's really no way to know from the letters if they kept a specific day, except for those who were clinging to the Jewish ways even after the Sacrifice. But we can know from the Scriptures that, whatever day or days that anyone decides to dedicate to the Lord for whatever purpose......it's good with Him. UNTIL.....some taskmaster begins to tell others that THEY must keep that day or days also or they're disobeying God. Then it becomes a false teaching.

If I decide to go hang around with some Seventh Day Adventists, I will "keep the sabbath" with them on Fri night and Sat. I will "keep the sabbath" with a Baptist on Sunday, if I decide to fellowship with one for a while. And....do both with a perfectly clear conscience.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts about keeping the sabbath.

I personally think walking with God in the Spirit every day in righteousness through His Son is "keeping the Sabbath." I'm one of those that Paul talked about who thinks every day is holy.....as long as you're in the Messiah.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -
I opened a thread about Bible Interpretation based on Matthew 4:5-7. In essence, I believe Jesus teaches us in that text that the truth will harmonize between passages of Scripture. You are invited to join that discussion. Perhaps in that thread, or this thread (your choice), you can explain how your understanding of Matthew 5:17-18 harmonizes with this text from Hebrews 8:

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Another relevant passage is Romans 15:4. The old writings are there for our learning -- not our law.

Yes, concerning Hebrews 8, this is directed towards the house of Israel, for the Jews. Much of this has to do with prophetic interpretations such as from Ezekiel’s writings (ch 36, 37, 38 etc…). Lets never confuse the Church with the Jews, God has a plan for His bride the Church (Gentile and messianic Jew now members of the Church) as well as a plan for the Jews (house of Israel) which is unfolding still and has yet to come to complete fulfillment, until everything is accomplished. We certainly are in the New Covenant as believers and followers of Christ, but this is still an unfolding plan that has yet to be drawn to its conclusion in which such prophecies I just mentioned in Ezekiel are fulfilled and the Jews (full house of Israel) are all brought into the new covenant which we are already the recipients of.

Note the blessings promised in Hebrews 8 under the better covenant i.e. verse 12 - "their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more," which is quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34. As for Ezekiel 36-38, the Israelites fell into captivity because of disobedience (i.e. idolatry) and were scattered. A remnant returned to Israel. Ezekiel, a prophet of God, sees the remnant prosper once again in Israel. Later, the remnant returns in 3 main waves i.e. 536 B.C. led by Zerrubabel, 458 B.C. led by Ezra, and 444 B.C. led by Nehemiah.

After some 400 years of silence, Jesus arrived on the scene in Israel. Even though, generally speaking, the Jews reject Him as their Messiah (the king prophesied of in the O.T.), Jesus died for them and the Gentiles (i.e. the "world" in John 3:16. Jesus commanded His apostles to take the gospel to all the world (Matt. 28:18-20 -- "Every creature" in Mark 16:15). Their message was to preach Jesus as both Lord and Christ (e.g. Acts 2:36) and the forgiveness (remission) of sins in His name (Acts 2:38 i.e. Hebrews 8:12). This message was preached to both Jews and Gentiles, who were brought together to form "one church" (Eph. 1:22 through 4:6).

Not sure what else God has in mind for the Jews. In fact, I don't think that He has left any promises unfulfilled that He made to Israel.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -
The "list" wasn't intended to tell you what you are obligated to do on the first (?) of the week. I posted the list for consideration about what the first (?) of the week points to.

Now, since Jesus commanded that we observe the Lord's Supper (Matthew 26:26-29; 1 Corinthians 11:17-34), I think we should consider the scriptural evidence that discusses when the disciples observed it i.e. an approved example. Do you agree?

BTW, I suggest also considering 1 Cor. 16:1 along with verse 2.

Now, back to the Sabbath. Do you find any evidence the disciples assembled on the Sabbath day? Wouldn't the Sabbath be later in the week versus the first of the week?

I don't know of any evidence that they, as a matter of course or of tradition, assembled on the seventh day or on the first of the week. They went into the synagogues in the Gentile cities where the Jews met on the sabbath to preach the good news. But that's still just a Jewish thing.

Well, assembling was commanded i.e. Hebrews 10:23-31. Therefore, if it is true that the Scriptures completely furnish us with what we need to please and serve God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), then we should find evidence in His word when we should assemble. For sure, Acts 20:7 is an example of the disciples assembling. I think it is an approved example, in the sense that what they did was acceptable and pleasing to God. Now, if you think the day of the week was incidental, and we can substitute another day (?) for the one we are told the disciples met on, please explain the scriptural basis for the reasoning.

I've never been convinced that, because it says that they gathered on the first of the week "to break bread", that they were observing the Lords Supper at that time. Breaking bread could (and does at times) just mean they were eating a meal together. No doubt they did that a lot. As far as considering it "an approved example", I suppose one could do that if they wished and follow it with great benefit. I also think one could decide to worship and break bread and collect money for the needs of saints on say, Thursday night regularly to great benefit also....with the approval of God.

Okay, let’s see which view of “breaking bread” harmonizes with other relevant passages. 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 addresses the type of meal the disciples were supposed to have when they came together.

Not sure how you think 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 authorizes giving on Thursday nights. BTW, I suspect Nadab and Abihu had no idea of just how displeased God was going to be with them when they deviated from what He told them (Leviticus 10:1-2). However, He was displeased. And, their defense went up in smoke – literally!

There's really no way to know from the letters if they kept a specific day, except for those who were clinging to the Jewish ways even after the Sacrifice. But we can know from the Scriptures that, whatever day or days that anyone decides to dedicate to the Lord for whatever purpose......it's good with Him. UNTIL.....some taskmaster begins to tell others that THEY must keep that day or days also or they're disobeying God. Then it becomes a false teaching.

Not sure which specific passages you have in mind, but I think you are misunderstanding the principle taught under the law of Christ. Consider Romans 14. Whether eating meat or observing a certain day, it simply didn’t matter to the Lord one way or the other. Briefly stated, with it didn’t make any difference to God whether they did or didn’t. Note Galatians 5:6. Circumcision is like that under the gospel (law) of Christ. Doesn’t matter to God. However, all things don’t fall into this category. On matters that God has authorized, we must do them. And, if God has specified or authorized a certain day (?) to do them, then that’s when we should do them. Under the law of Moses, God certainly had expectations around the Sabbath day. Now, were the Israelites free to pick another day they wanted to rest on, or did God expect them to observe the day He said to? Like was pointed out previously, God specifically commands us to assemble (Heb. 10:23-31) – the Lord and the Spirit seem to take it downright personal when the disciples forsake the assembling of the church. Therefore, it is in our best interests to assure we understand what God’s expectations are.

My intent isn’t to come across as a “taskmaster,” but simply like Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:2a.

If I decide to go hang around with some Seventh Day Adventists, I will "keep the sabbath" with them on Fri night and Sat. I will "keep the sabbath" with a Baptist on Sunday, if I decide to fellowship with one for a while. And....do both with a perfectly clear conscience.

Fellowship (joint participation) implies approval or consent. I suggest considering 2 John 9-11.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts about keeping the sabbath.

I personally think walking with God in the Spirit every day in righteousness through His Son is "keeping the Sabbath." I'm one of those that Paul talked about who thinks every day is holy.....as long as you're in the Messiah.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. However, like my thoughts and the thoughts of others, they must be compared to God’s thoughts i.e. Romans 3:4a.

 

[Psalms34]

Note the blessings promised in Hebrews 8 under the better covenant i.e. verse 12 - "their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more," which is quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34. As for Ezekiel 36-38, the Israelites fell into captivity because of disobedience (i.e. idolatry) and were scattered. A remnant returned to Israel. Ezekiel, a prophet of God, sees the remnant prosper once again in Israel. Later, the remnant returns in 3 main waves i.e. 536 B.C. led by Zerrubabel, 458 B.C. led by Ezra, and 444 B.C. led by Nehemiah.

No, I don't believe so. Ezekiel is unfulfilled prophecy. In this case they are scattered throughout the world; throughout many nations, not taken into captivity by a nation but scattered into the entire world. It does not speak of a remnant but the whole house of Israel which will return from this world dispersion. This is exactly what is happening now and has never happened before, the full house of Israel is returning to the land from a world dispersion, the world is a cup of trembling over it as well, and soon the end-times battles will begin. We, the Church, are not the House of Israel, we are not Jews. The house if Israel is the House of Israel and the Church is the Church everyplace it is mentioned in scripture. As the Church, we are not bound to the Law of Moses, but to the Redeemer who fulfilled the law for us and in him we are complete.

 

[StevenL]

Hi DRA.

Romans 14:1-8 tells me all I need to know about keeping "days."

If you and those you fellowship with feel the need to pull passages out of the letters and make "commandments" or "laws" out of them, that's perfectly fine...for yourself. Do it and be blessed. However,I find the way you're using the words to be in error since you're attaching some sort of "disobedience curse" to them. Any free son will reject such as that with joy.

God bless brother.

 

[- DRA -]

Hi DRA.

Romans 14:1-8 tells me all I need to know about keeping "days."

If you and those you fellowship with feel the need to pull passages out of the letters and make "commandments" or "laws" out of them, that's perfectly fine...for yourself. Do it and be blessed. However,I find the way you're using the words to be in error since you're attaching some sort of "disobedience curse" to them. Any free son will reject such as that with joy.

God bless brother.

No problem.

I have given Scripture to support my points. If you think I've made an error somewhere, then please point out exactly where and what the truth on that particular point is.

Come to think of it, your approach to Romans 14 certainly has its possibilities. Take Hebrews 3 through about the first half of chapter 4. In that text, we are admonished to not harden our hearts -- today (several times). However, since Romans 14 tells us that we really don't have to keep or worry about any particular days, then we really don't have to worry about obeying God today. We can put it off until tomorrow, right? And, we can continue to do that until the Lord returns, right. Therefore, its not really our fault that we didn't heed God today. It's His fault for leaving that little loophole in His word, right?

Don't spend too much time worrying over me or those that I fellowship. You just keep doing what you are doing and enjoy that. There's no need to get ugly. People sometimes do that when they can't find a scriptural basis for what they promote.

I suspect those I put some sort of "disobedience curse" upon won't have to worry too much about that when the judgment occurs. If memory serves me right, it's really about what we do and say in comparison to God's word i.e. 2 Cor. 5:10.

Go in peace.

 

[StevenL]

Sorry man, what you're bringing forth is not God's Word at all and certainly not Scriptural evidence that God's people are "commanded" to do something on a certain day. I know that you think it is.

You have proof from an apostle that God approves of a man that keeps a day of his choosing or keeps any other day of his choosing but you don't want that.

I've seen this a million times and I'll see it a million more times before it's all done. I just keep on talking to people about the freedom in Yeshua. And warning them about bondage. The Letters are full of warnings about this very thing we're discussing.

I just hope the people of God really hear them.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

Note the blessings promised in Hebrews 8 under the better covenant i.e. verse 12 - "their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more," which is quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34. As for Ezekiel 36-38, the Israelites fell into captivity because of disobedience (i.e. idolatry) and were scattered. A remnant returned to Israel. Ezekiel, a prophet of God, sees the remnant prosper once again in Israel. Later, the remnant returns in 3 main waves i.e. 536 B.C. led by Zerrubabel, 458 B.C. led by Ezra, and 444 B.C. led by Nehemiah.

No, I don't believe so. Ezekiel is unfulfilled prophecy. In this case they are scattered throughout the world; throughout many nations, not taken into captivity by a nation but scattered into the entire world. It does not speak of a remnant but the whole house of Israel which will return from this world dispersion. This is exactly what is happening now and has never happened before, the full house of Israel is returning to the land from a world dispersion, the world is a cup of trembling over it as well, and soon the end-times battles will begin. We, the Church, are not the House of Israel, we are not Jews. The house if Israel is the House of Israel and the Church is the Church everyplace it is mentioned in scripture. As the Church, we are not bound to the Law of Moses, but to the Redeemer who fulfilled the law for us and in him we are complete.

Jeremiah 23:1-5 (NKJV) ...

1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the Lord.
2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the Lord.
3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking," says the Lord.
5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Romans 9:27 ...

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." [See Isaiah 10:20-21]

Additional Food for Thought about the Remnant -- Romans 11:5 ...

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [This presents the remnant of Jews being saved under the gospel of Christ as the antitype, and the remnant of Jews that returned from Assyrian and Babylonian captivity as the type.]

Romans 4:11-12 ...

11 And he [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Romans 9:6 ...

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

 

[Psalms34]

Originally Posted by - DRA -


Jeremiah 23:1-5 (NKJV) ...

1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the Lord.
2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the Lord.
3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking," says the Lord.
5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Actually if you read on it distinctly says from the North.
Also if you read the context:
5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yet, where is the King which will rule on Earth where the House of Israel will dwell safely? where Judah will be saved. Are you Judah? Or did the king fail? No! it has not happened yet. This is a prophecy within a prophecy which points to the reason why they are brought back from the north in that time, to not be abandoned and left to perish completely, that the Messiah will come one day later on to rule on Earth where they will all be saved, not a remnant into the Church or the Church to become the remnant. Remember, there is no distinction within the Church between Jew or Gentile, the Church does not receive the promises that God made for the house of Israel. If Israel is lost, so is the whole plan and God the maker of Heaven and Earth is made out to be a simple god that does not know the things to come.

 

[- DRA -]

Actually if you read on it distinctly says from the North.
Also if you read the context:
5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yet, where is the King which will rule on Earth where the House of Israel will dwell safely? where Judah will be saved. Are you Judah? Or did the king fail? No! it has not happened yet. This is a prophecy within a prophecy which points to the reason why they are brought back from the north in that time, to not be abandoned and left to perish completely, that the Messiah will come one day later on to rule on Earth where they will all be saved, not a remnant into the Church or the Church to become the remnant. Remember, there is no distinction within the Church between Jew or Gentile, the Church does not receive the promises that God made for the house of Israel. If Israel is lost, so is the whole plan and God the maker of Heaven and Earth is made out to be a simple god that does not know the things to come.

Okay, Jeremiah 23:1-8 (KNJV) says,

1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the Lord.
2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the Lord.
3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking," says the Lord.
5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 "Therefore, behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "that they shall no longer say, 'As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,'
8 but, 'As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.' And they shall dwell in their own land."

First off, note the word "remnant" in the bolded red font. Does the word mean "the whole" or "a part of the whole?"

Second, let's note the context of the word "remnant." The passage (verse 3) says, "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase." A remnant would be returned "out of all countries where I have driven them." This particular point is also emphasized in verse 8. The remnant would return "from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them." Perhaps it would good to remind ourselves that the divided kingdom was first taken captive by the Assyrians, and the remaining southern kingdom by the Babylonians over a hundred years later. And, that the Babylonians absorbed the people under the Assyrian Empire when they defeated it. Thus, the Israelites were not only taken captive to the north, but scattered to other areas as well. These passages reflect these things. As previously stated, only a remnant of the Israelites returned.

The king alluded to in the passage is Jesus ... the son of David (Matthew 1:1; 22:41-46) who was "all authority ... in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Under Jesus a better covenant is promised to not only Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:6-13), also to the Gentiles as well (Ephesians 1:22 through 4:6). Under this covenant sins are "remembered no more" (Heb. 8:12 - see Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

I suspect that no part of God's plan has failed or is in danger of failing. Rather, if anything is doomed for failure, it is the misunderstanding of God's plan for mankind. Frankly, I'm not sure why you think God has not fulfilled everything for Israel that He promised them. I suspect this reasoning is connected with the millennium reign of Christ. If this is the case, I suggest that Colossians 1:13 and Revelation 1:9 be consulted. In essence, those passages plainly show the kingdom promised in the Old Testament was set up in the first century. Therefore, there is no need for Him to return to build His kingdom -- because He has already built it.

 

[BustedFlat]

I suspect that no part of God's plan has failed or is in danger of failing. Rather, if anything is doomed for failure, it is the misunderstanding of God's plan for mankind. Frankly, I'm not sure why you think God has not fulfilled everything for Israel that He promised them. I suspect this reasoning is connected with the millennium reign of Christ. If this is the case, I suggest that Colossians 1:13 and Revelation 1:9 be consulted. In essence, those passages plainly show the kingdom promised in the Old Testament was set up in the first century. Therefore, there is no need for Him to return to build His kingdom -- because He has already built it.

I would caution you to pay close attention to :


ISA 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


JER 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.


LUK 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


LUK 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


He did not sit on the Throne of David in the first century, so he could not have built any kingdom. And He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever. I do believe that can house can only be Israel. As his reign over that house will never end the plan of God is yet to be fulfilled.


In Jesus


BustedFlat

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -
I suspect that no part of God's plan has failed or is in danger of failing. Rather, if anything is doomed for failure, it is the misunderstanding of God's plan for mankind. Frankly, I'm not sure why you think God has not fulfilled everything for Israel that He promised them. I suspect this reasoning is connected with the millennium reign of Christ. If this is the case, I suggest that Colossians 1:13 and Revelation 1:9 be consulted. In essence, those passages plainly show the kingdom promised in the Old Testament was set up in the first century. Therefore, there is no need for Him to return to build His kingdom -- because He has already built it.

I would caution you to pay close attention to :

ISA 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

JER 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

LUK 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

LUK 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

He did not sit on the Throne of David in the first century, so he could not have built any kingdom. And He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever. I do believe that can house can only be Israel. As his reign over that house will never end the plan of God is yet to be fulfilled.

In Jesus

BustedFlat

Thanks for your comments. You have confirmed what I suspected.

And, I also appreciate the words of caution. I think caution is indeed a valid point that should be considered. Here is how I exercise caution in my understanding of Scripture:
Let's compare what you are proposing with other Scriptures ...
Mark 9:1. Jesus promised that the kingdom would be built during the lifetime of the first-century disciples.
Colossians 1:13. The aposle Paul wrote that disciples were translated out of darkness into the kingdom. Now, wouldn't that mean the kingdom was established? I mean, how can someone be translated into something that is not yet in existence?
Revelation 1:9. The apostle John was in the kingdom.
To me, the dangerous approach to these passages would be to portray the Lord as not doing what He said He would do, and to portray two of His apostles as misrepresenting the truth of the matter.

And, as far as Jesus sitting on David's throne is concerned, I suggest consideration of the apostle Peter's sermon in Acts 2. In a nutshell, after the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, the Spirit directed Peter to deliver a message where Jesus was proclaimed to be both Lord and Christ (verse 36). "Christ" is the Greek version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," which means Jesus is the king promised through David. In the preceding verses, Peter uses passages such as Psalm 16:10 and Psalm 110:1 to show that the promises were fulfilled in Jesus -- not in David himself. On top of the scriptural evidence, Peter appeals to another piece of evidence to show that Jesus is exalted to God's right hand and currently reigning -- the arrival of the Holy Spirit (verse 33).

Don't know if you have read the previous posts, but another passage to consider is Romans 4:11-12. In a nutshell, the point is that the true children of Abraham aren't those who are of his direct lineage, but those who have the faith that he had. Another relevant text is Romans chapters 9-11. God intended all along to extend an invitation to the Gentiles to be His people. They readily accepted. Not all. Just those who had the type of faith Abraham had.

 

[BustedFlat]

Thanks for your comments. You have confirmed what I suspected.

And, I also appreciate the words of caution. I think caution is indeed a valid point that should be considered. Here is how I exercise caution in my understanding of Scripture:
Let's compare what you are proposing with other Scriptures ...
Mark 9:1. Jesus promised that the kingdom would be built during the lifetime of the first-century disciples.

Mar 9:1¶And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2¶And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.




They saw, but where they in 1st century Galilee? I would contend they were in heaven as John was in Revelation.

Colossians 1:13. The aposle Paul wrote that disciples were translated out of darkness into the kingdom. Now, wouldn't that mean the kingdom was established? I mean, how can someone be translated into something that is not yet in existence?

God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are out side of time. To be translated into the kingdom that is yet to come is not outside the power of God.

Revelation 1:9. The apostle John was in the kingdom.

Rev 1:1¶The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

To me, the dangerous approach to these passages would be to portray the Lord as not doing what He said He would do, and to portray two of His apostles as misrepresenting the truth of the matter.

And, as far as Jesus sitting on David's throne is concerned, I suggest consideration of the apostle Peter's sermon in Acts 2. In a nutshell, after the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, the Spirit directed Peter to deliver a message where Jesus was proclaimed to be both Lord and Christ (verse 36). "Christ" is the Greek version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," which means Jesus is the king promised through David. In the preceding verses, Peter uses passages such as Psalm 16:10 and Psalm 110:1 to show that the promises were fulfilled in Jesus -- not in David himself. On top of the scriptural evidence, Peter appeals to another piece of evidence to show that Jesus is exalted to God's right hand and currently reigning -- the arrival of the Holy Spirit (verse 33).

Don't know if you have read the previous posts, but another passage to consider is Romans 4:11-12. In a nutshell, the point is that the true children of Abraham aren't those who are of his direct lineage, but those who have the faith that he had. Another relevant text is Romans chapters 9-11. God intended all along to extend an invitation to the Gentiles to be His people. They readily accepted. Not all. Just those who had the type of faith Abraham had.

To me it is much more dangerous to pick at parts of the Word of God and not read the whole Word. Romans is written to the Gentiles and as such contain an emphases on the Gentile world. It is a very dangerous thing to conclude that the church will reap the rewards that God has promised to the Jew.


The dreams of Daniel;


Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 24¶Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The interval between the 69th week, which ends at the entrance of Jesus ridding on an ass into Jerusalem and the start of the 70th week will be the time of the Gentiles at which point He will confirm the covenant.


Rom 11:1¶I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.




Rom 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The writer clearly states that that AFTER the time of the Gentiles Israel will be saved. It is not alluded to nor suggested, but is a statement.




In Jesus




BustedFlat

 

[Iosias]

May I suggest that you buy this and read it! It is excellent!!

 

[pgp_protector]

I Go to Work* On Most Saturdays & Sundays


*At Church

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Thanks for your comments. You have confirmed what I suspected.

And, I also appreciate the words of caution. I think caution is indeed a valid point that should be considered. Here is how I exercise caution in my understanding of Scripture:
Let's compare what you are proposing with other Scriptures ...
Mark 9:1. Jesus promised that the kingdom would be built during the lifetime of the first-century disciples.

Mar 9:1¶And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2¶And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

They saw, but where they in 1st century Galilee? I would contend they were in heaven as John was in Revelation.

Actually, Mark 9:1 is a part of the discussion that began in Mark 8:27 and continues through Mark 9:1. See also Matthew 16:13-28. Note the Next verse in Mark -- "Now after 6 days" (9:2 - NKJV). I suspect you are trying to connect Jesus' discussion in the area of Cesarea Philippi with His transfiguration that occurred six days later on a high mountain.

Let's see now. Did the disciples go to heaven to "see the kingdom come with power?" Consider John's teaching in Matt. 3:2 - the kingdom is "at hand [close]." Likewise, Jesus taught the kingdom was "at hand [close]" (Matt. 4:17). How close was it? Jesus promised in Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:28 that some of the disciples would "see" it before they died ... and they would see it "come with power." Therefore, if we can determine when this power Jesus promised the disciples came upon them, we should be able to determine if and when the kingdom was established. Let's see. Luke 24:49 gives us additional insight into when the "power" was to come upon the disciples. Evidently, it wasn't to be too far in the distance because the disciples were told to tarry in Jerusalem until it came. In Acts 1, after Jesus ascends into heaven, we find the disciples tarrying in Jerusalem, just as Jesus instructed (verses 12-26. Then, low and behold, "power" came upon the disciples in Acts 2:1-4. Therefore, if we can trust Jesus, the disciples had just seen the kingdom of God come with power. To me, it's not too terribly hard to determine that the disciples were right there in the first-century Jerusalem when the kingdom came with power. Peter even proclaims the arrival of the Spirit (the power) was according to Joel's prophecy. And, as previously stated, Peter, under the direct guidance of the power that Jesus sent -- the Holy Spirit, preached a lesson where Peter proclaimed that Jesus was sitting on God's right hand and reigning on David's throne (Acts 2:32-36). In response, three-thousand Jews obeyed what they were told to do and were forgiven of their sins (Acts 2:38-41). Thus, they were translated out of darkness (sin) into the kingdom of the Son of His love, "in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14). Thus, when the 3,000 Jews were forgiven of their sins in Acts 2:41, they were translated into the kingdom. In essence, if the kingdom has NOT been established, then we are all still in our sins.

Originally Posted by - DRA -

Colossians 1:13. The aposle Paul wrote that disciples were translated out of darkness into the kingdom. Now, wouldn't that mean the kingdom was established? I mean, how can someone be translated into something that is not yet in existence?

God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are out side of time. To be translated into the kingdom that is yet to come is not outside the power of God.

Clearly, Jesus established His kingdom when He said He would. That's the point the Scriptures show.

Originally Posted by - DRA -
Revelation 1:9. The apostle John was in the kingdom.

Rev 1:1¶The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: [/QUOTE]

Uh, not sure what your point is. Physically, according to Revelation 1:9, John was on the island of Patmos. Spiritually, according to Revelation 1:9, John was in the kingdom. And, at the appropriate times, John was given selective visions of heaven as described in the book.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

To me, the dangerous approach to these passages would be to portray the Lord as not doing what He said He would do, and to portray two of His apostles as misrepresenting the truth of the matter.

And, as far as Jesus sitting on David's throne is concerned, I suggest consideration of the apostle Peter's sermon in Acts 2. In a nutshell, after the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, the Spirit directed Peter to deliver a message where Jesus was proclaimed to be both Lord and Christ (verse 36). "Christ" is the Greek version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," which means Jesus is the king promised through David. In the preceding verses, Peter uses passages such as Psalm 16:10 and Psalm 110:1 to show that the promises were fulfilled in Jesus -- not in David himself. On top of the scriptural evidence, Peter appeals to another piece of evidence to show that Jesus is exalted to God's right hand and currently reigning -- the arrival of the Holy Spirit (verse 33).

Don't know if you have read the previous posts, but another passage to consider is Romans 4:11-12. In a nutshell, the point is that the true children of Abraham aren't those who are of his direct lineage, but those who have the faith that he had. Another relevant text is Romans chapters 9-11. God intended all along to extend an invitation to the Gentiles to be His people. They readily accepted. Not all. Just those who had the type of faith Abraham had.

To me it is much more dangerous to pick at parts of the Word of God and not read the whole Word. Romans is written to the Gentiles and as such contain an emphases on the Gentile world. It is a very dangerous thing to conclude that the church will reap the rewards that God has promised to the Jew.

The dreams of Daniel;

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 24¶Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The interval between the 69th week, which ends at the entrance of Jesus ridding on an ass into Jerusalem and the start of the 70th week will be the time of the Gentiles at which point He will confirm the covenant.

Food for Thought:
Matthew 24:15 says, "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy Place." (KNJV)

followed by this thought ...

Matthew 24:34 says, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled."

Conclusion, the events discussed in Matthew 24:2-34 occurred during the first-century. The description is of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Rom 11:1¶I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Rom 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The writer clearly states that that AFTER the time of the Gentiles Israel will be saved. It is not alluded to nor suggested, but is a statement.

In Jesus

BustedFlat

Did God cast Israel away? No. However, there were only a "remnant" (Romans 11:5) that has opened their heart to God and accepted His grace (the blessings offered through His Son Jesus). According to verse 17, those with hardened hearts were like the limbs broken off from a good olive tree, with limbs from a wild olive tree being grafted in (i.e. the Gentiles) to form a part of the good olive tree. True, according to verse 26a, all Israel will be saved. Considering the imagery used in the preceding verses (i.e. the olive tree with some branches broken off and some branches grafted in), Israel consists of both faithful and believing Jews and Gentiles. Combined, they are God's chosen people under the gospel of Christ.

 

[BustedFlat]

Food for Thought:
Matthew 24:15 says, "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy Place." (KNJV)

followed by this thought ...

Matthew 24:34 says, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled."

Conclusion, the events discussed in Matthew 24:2-34 occurred during the first-century. The description is of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.



Did God cast Israel away? No. However, there were only a "remnant" (Romans 11:5) that has opened their heart to God and accepted His grace (the blessings offered through His Son Jesus). According to verse 17, those with hardened hearts were like the limbs broken off from a good olive tree, with limbs from a wild olive tree being grafted in (i.e. the Gentiles) to form a part of the good olive tree. True, according to verse 26a, all Israel will be saved. Considering the imagery used in the preceding verses (i.e. the olive tree with some branches broken off and some branches grafted in), Israel consists of both faithful and believing Jews and Gentiles. Combined, they are God's chosen people under the gospel of Christ.

That still does not answer Daniel 9:24-27, which was written to the Jews. The promise is to the people of Daniel:


Dan 9:24¶Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


2Th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


That is what Matthew 24:15 is referring too. Daniel 9:27. Has the prince that is to come (Nimrod, Antichrist, son of perdition and about 40 odd other names) sat in the temple and declared himself God?
The execution of the Messiah, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the flood (dispersal of Israel) of Daniel 9:26 is not the abomination of desolation.


Matthew 24:34 is the same as Mark 9:1. There is no doubt that John, Peter and James witnessed Jesus in the Kingdom.


Romans 9 – 11 reaffirms that Israel will come back into God's focus. The writers take 3 chapters to make that point.


If you remove the Jews from the equation, then Revelation 4 -23 make no sense, as the Church is in heaven.


Something to think about:
1Cr 10:32Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:




In Jesus


BustedFlat