How do you do creation science research?

Loudmouth

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I am a little bit tired of you. It seems you can't ask good question.

If you tell me a few steps involved in a research work, then I can tell you how would creationism fit in. I guarantee you that it would be better than the version done by an evolutionist.

Let's start with SIFTER. This acronym stand stands for Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships. It is an algorithm that incorporates evolutionary mechanisms to predict protein function based on phylogenetic relationships and amino acid sequence. From the paper:

"Phylogenomics applies knowledge about how molecular function evolves to improve function prediction. Specifically, phylogenomics is based on the assertion that protein function evolves in parallel with sequence [32], implying that a phylogeny based on protein sequences accurately represents how molecular function evolved for that particular set of proteins. Additionally, molecular function tends to evolve more rapidly after duplication than after speciation because there are fewer mutational constraints; thus, mutations that alter function may more easily fixate in one of the copies [33–35]. These observations give rise to the phylogenomics method, which involves building a phylogenetic tree from homologous protein sequences, marking the location of duplication events, and propagating known functions within each clade descendant from a duplication event. This produces a set of function predictions supported by the evolutionary principles outlined above."

So does this algorithm work? Sure does. Again, from the paper:

"They show that SIFTER annotates 96% of the gold standard proteins correctly, outperforming popular annotation methods including BLAST-based annotation (75%), GOtcha (89%), GeneQuiz (64%), and Orthostrapper (11%)."

So what is the creationist algorithm for predicting protein function?
 
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Loudmouth

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I am a little bit tired of you. It seems you can't ask good question.

If you tell me a few steps involved in a research work, then I can tell you how would creationism fit in. I guarantee you that it would be better than the version done by an evolutionist.


Here is another study:

Mol Biol Evol. 2011 Jan;28(1):533-42. Epub 2010 Aug 19.
Comparative vertebrate evolutionary analyses of type I collagen: potential of COL1a1 gene structure and intron variation for common bone-related diseases.

Stover DA, Verrelli BC.
Source

Center for Evolutionary Medicine and Informatics, The Biodesign Institute and School of Life Sciences, Arizona State University, USA.

Abstract

Collagen type I alpha 1 (COL1a1), which encodes the primary subunit of type I collagen, the main structural and most abundant protein in vertebrates, harbors hundreds of mutations linked to human diseases like osteoporosis and osteogenesis imperfecta. Previous studies have attempted to predict the phenotypic severity associated with type I collagen mutations, yet an evolutionary analysis that compares historical and recent selective pressures, including across noncoding regions, has never been conducted. Here, we use a comparative genomic and species evolutionary analysis representing ∼450 My of vertebrate history to investigate functional constraints associated with both exons and introns of the >17-kb COL1a1 gene. We find that although the COL1a1 amino acid sequence is highly conserved, there are both spatial and temporal signatures of varying selective constraint across protein domains. Furthermore, sites of high evolutionary constraint significantly correlate with the location of disease-associated mutations, the latter of which also cluster with respect to specific severity classes typically categorized in clinical studies. Finally, we find that COL1a1 introns are significantly short in length with high GC content, patterns that are shared across highly diverged vertebrates, and which may be a signature of strong stabilizing selection for high COL1a1 gene expression. In conclusion, although previous studies focused on COL1a1 coding regions, the current results implicate introns as areas of high selective constraint and targets of bone-related phenotypic variation. From a broader perspective, our comparative evolutionary approach provides further resolution to models predicting mutations associated with bone-related function and disease severity.


So what methods are creationists using to research the cause of bone diseases?
 
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Loudmouth

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Here is another study:

BMC Evol Biol. 2008 Oct 6;8:273.
The role of positive selection in determining the molecular cause of species differences in disease.

Vamathevan JJ, Hasan S, Emes RD, Amrine-Madsen H, Rajagopalan D, Topp SD, Kumar V, Word M, Simmons MD, Foord SM, Sanseau P, Yang Z, Holbrook JD.
Source

1Department of Biology, University College London, Darwin Bldg, Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT, UK. j.vamathevan@ucl.ac.uk

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Related species, such as humans and chimpanzees, often experience the same disease with varying degrees of pathology, as seen in the cases of Alzheimer's disease, or differing symptomatology as in AIDS. Furthermore, certain diseases such as schizophrenia, epithelial cancers and autoimmune disorders are far more frequent in humans than in other species for reasons not associated with lifestyle. Genes that have undergone positive selection during species evolution are indicative of functional adaptations that drive species differences. Thus we investigate whether biomedical disease differences between species can be attributed to positively selected genes.
RESULTS:

We identified genes that putatively underwent positive selection during the evolution of humans and four mammals which are often used to model human diseases (mouse, rat, chimpanzee and dog). We show that genes predicted to have been subject to positive selection pressure during human evolution are implicated in diseases such as epithelial cancers, schizophrenia, autoimmune diseases and Alzheimer's disease, all of which differ in prevalence and symptomatology between humans and their mammalian relatives. In agreement with previous studies, the chimpanzee lineage was found to have more genes under positive selection than any of the other lineages. In addition, we found new evidence to support the hypothesis that genes that have undergone positive selection tend to interact with each other. This is the first such evidence to be detected widely among mammalian genes and may be important in identifying molecular pathways causative of species differences.
CONCLUSION:

Our dataset of genes predicted to have been subject to positive selection in five species serves as an informative resource that can be consulted prior to selecting appropriate animal models during drug target validation. We conclude that studying the evolution of functional and biomedical disease differences between species is an important way to gain insight into their molecular causes and may provide a method to predict when animal models do not mirror human biology.


So what is the creationist method for researching the severity of specific diseases in humans?
 
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Delphiki

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Dude, Loudmouth... Thank you.

juvenissun said:
I am a little bit tired of you. It seems you can't ask good question.

Actually, I just can't seem to ask any questions creationists are able to answer... well, honestly anyway. I think that's why you're frustrated. You should consider asking yourself the same questions. That's my advice. You can be like AV and "take it with a grain of salt" if you like.
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually, I just can't seem to ask any questions creationists are able to answer... well, honestly anyway.
I feel your frustration, except with Internet scientists.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm honest, AV.. I just use big words sometimes, like "logical" and "evidence".
And I just use big words sometimes too, like "faith" and "miracle".
 
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juvenissun

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Here is another study:




So what methods are creationists using to research the cause of bone diseases?

I did not read this abst. I don't understand it.

But, what if I say a creationist can use "the same" method? Does that make this creationist not qualified to be a creationist?
 
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Loudmouth

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I did not read this abst. I don't understand it.

But, what if I say a creationist can use "the same" method? Does that make this creationist not qualified to be a creationist?

If creationists use evolutionary algorithms and phylogenies it disqualifies them as creationists, does it not? It's like a vegetarian claiming that they can make a vegetarian dish that tastes just like T-bone steak, and then grilling up a T-bone steak. It kind of disqualifies them as a vegetarian, does it not?
 
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juvenissun

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Let's start with SIFTER. This acronym stand stands for Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships. It is an algorithm that incorporates evolutionary mechanisms to predict protein function based on phylogenetic relationships and amino acid sequence. From the paper:

"Phylogenomics applies knowledge about how molecular function evolves to improve function prediction. Specifically, phylogenomics is based on the assertion that protein function evolves in parallel with sequence [32], implying that a phylogeny based on protein sequences accurately represents how molecular function evolved for that particular set of proteins. Additionally, molecular function tends to evolve more rapidly after duplication than after speciation because there are fewer mutational constraints; thus, mutations that alter function may more easily fixate in one of the copies [33–35]. These observations give rise to the phylogenomics method, which involves building a phylogenetic tree from homologous protein sequences, marking the location of duplication events, and propagating known functions within each clade descendant from a duplication event. This produces a set of function predictions supported by the evolutionary principles outlined above."

So does this algorithm work? Sure does. Again, from the paper:

"They show that SIFTER annotates 96% of the gold standard proteins correctly, outperforming popular annotation methods including BLAST-based annotation (75%), GOtcha (89%), GeneQuiz (64%), and Orthostrapper (11%)."

So what is the creationist algorithm for predicting protein function?

May be you can specify the part of the algorithm which "use" the evolution concept. I would then be able to point to you that it is actually not a evolution concept, but a simple logic. If it is simply logic, why couldn't a creationist also use it?

I argue it this way because I do not understand the content. You would have to make it simple to me.
 
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juvenissun

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Dude, Loudmouth... Thank you.



Actually, I just can't seem to ask any questions creationists are able to answer... well, honestly anyway. I think that's why you're frustrated. You should consider asking yourself the same questions. That's my advice. You can be like AV and "take it with a grain of salt" if you like.

My question is always logically solid and well defined. That is what a good question should be. Just read the OP. It is disastrous.
 
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juvenissun

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If creationists use evolutionary algorithms and phylogenies it disqualifies them as creationists, does it not? It's like a vegetarian claiming that they can make a vegetarian dish that tastes just like T-bone steak, and then grilling up a T-bone steak. It kind of disqualifies them as a vegetarian, does it not?

You are getting specific. But, that is good.

What a creationist can do is to put the idea of phylogenies into the research and show there is problem with the result. I am sure there are many such works. (don't ask me, I am not a biologist).
 
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Loudmouth

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May be you can specify the part of the algorithm which "use" the evolution concept.

It bolded that section in the part you quoted. They produce a tree that represents the evolutionary relationships between species. They use this information to figure out where a protein sequence has been duplicated. From this information they then make predictions about changes or preservation of protein function.

I argue it this way because I do not understand the content. You would have to make it simple to me.

As the paper states, "Phylogenomics is a methodology for annotating the specific molecular function of a protein using the evolutionary history of that protein as captured by a phylogenetic tree [17]."

If you don't understand how phylogenies are constructed, how those phylogenies represent evolutionary history, or how protein function is influenced by evolutionary history then you are going to have a tough slog. Phylogenies are often referred to as the "tree of life", but that really sells them short. The important bit is HOW one builds a phylogeny.

I have barely skimmed it, but this site appears to be up your alley. You may have to look up a few terms.

I will say that it is quite refreshing to find a creationist that is willing to ask questions rather than pretend to know what they are talking about. Tip of the hat to you sir.
 
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Loudmouth

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What a creationist can do is to put the idea of phylogenies into the research and show there is problem with the result.

How would they use creationism to study the same topic? How would creationists use creationism to predict protein function, or figure out why some diseases are more severe in humans than in other species?

It's not enough to show that a competing theory is wrong. You still have to show that your theory produces results.
 
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Greg1234

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Here is another study:




So what is the creationist method for researching the severity of specific diseases in humans?

We don't research the severity of diseases specifically. The cause of disease is researched, its severity and symptoms analyzed, and the procedures necessary for alleviation administered.

In conclusion, although previous studies focused on COL1a1 coding regions, the current results implicate introns as areas of high selective constraint and targets of bone-related phenotypic variation.

Yes, mutations signify bone disease. We knew that. Their location can simply be determined through analysis. Degeneration over the epochs has resulted in man (who was created as man) being a subject of multiple diseases.

From a broader perspective, our comparative evolutionary approach provides further resolution to models predicting mutations associated with bone-related function and disease severity.

Jerry Coyne and Darwinian medicine - Evolution News & Views

Coyne is right: there are virtually no evolutionary biologists on medical school faculties in the 21st century. Part of the reason is mundane: evolutionary biology plays no significant role in medical science and practice. Medicine depends on actual scientific understanding of disease mechanisms and therapeutics, and speculation about evolutionary origins is of no tangible value to the medical profession.​
 
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Loudmouth

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We don't research the severity of diseases specifically.

By "we", do you mean creationists? Here is what the evolutionary scientists researched:

"Related species, such as humans and chimpanzees, often experience the same disease with varying degrees of pathology, as seen in the cases of Alzheimer's disease, or differing symptomatology as in AIDS. Furthermore, certain diseases such as schizophrenia, epithelial cancers and autoimmune disorders are far more frequent in humans than in other species for reasons not associated with lifestyle. Genes that have undergone positive selection during species evolution are indicative of functional adaptations that drive species differences. Thus we investigate whether biomedical disease differences between species can be attributed to positively selected genes."

Yes, mutations signify bone disease. We knew that. Their location can simply be determined through analysis.

Yes, through an evolutionary analysis between vertebrate species as the article demonstrated.
 
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Greg1234

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I did not read this abst. I don't understand it.

Protein Molecular Function Prediction by Bayesian Phylogenomics

We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology.​

"DNA annotation or genome annotation is the process of (a) identifying the locations/segments of genes, coding regions and other specific locations that are of imporatance in a DNA sequence or genome and (b) associating relevant information with those locations/segments (e.g. determining what the identified genes do). Once a genome is sequenced, it needs to be annotated in order to make sense of it." DNA Sequence Annotation Studio

An annotated sequence is a sequence for which the function encoded is known. Unannotated, unknown.



Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy.​

A protein family is usually a set of proteins with a similar sequence, structure and function. The annotated sequences of some of the other members within the protein family is fed into the program and it is asked to find the function of the sequences (annotate).



Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper.​

BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper are databases which already contain an annotation of the sequences being fed in. They can be used as references to check the accuracy of SIFTER and the new method.

The new method is a mathematical function, a sort of algorithm.

pcbi.0010045.e002.jpg


"Let Xi denote the Boolean vector of candidate molecular function annotations for node i and let denote the mth component of this vector. Let M denote the number of components of this vector. Let πi denote the immediate ancestor of node i in the phylogeny, so that denotes the annotation vector at the ancestor. We define the transition probability associated with the branch from πi to i as follows"

Note Protein Molecular Function Prediction by Bayesian Phylogenomics



We chose a statistical model known as a loglinear model for the model of function evolution. We make no claims for any theoretical justification of this model. It is simply a phenomenological model that captures in broad outlines some of the desiderata of an evolutionary model for function and has worked well in practice in our phylogenomic setting.​




We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5′-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations.

Protein families.

The performance of SIFTER is analysed through referencing published functional characterizations (or annotated sequences).




Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature.​

SIFTER is given the annotated sequences of 3% of the proteins within the family and is asked to find the function of the other members of the family. It scores 96%.



The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%).​

Better than others.



We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction.​

Plasmodium falciparum contains members of the family and SIFTER annotated the sequences through the method just outlined.



The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems.​

Biologists are joyful. It shows that when some members of the family are annotated and fed in, the function of the other members, which often times have a similar structure, sequence and function, can be statistically deduced.




A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.​

Marketing product.




But, what if I say a creationist can use "the same" method? Does that make this creationist not qualified to be a creationist?

It's funny you should ask that. We use the Orchard. Testing the Orchard Model and the NCSE's Claims of "Nested Patterns" Supporting a "Tree of Life" - Evolution News & Views

There was also the case where an evolutionary relationship was surmised but it failed in real time and showed constraints.

Michael Behe's Blog - Uncommon Descent - Part 2

In the paper Bridgham et al (2009) continue their earlier work on steroid hormone receptor evolution. Previously they had constructed in the laboratory a protein which they inferred to be the ancestral sequence of two modern hormone receptors abbreviated GR and MR (Bridgham et al 2006). They then showed that if they changed two amino acid residues in the inferred ancestral receptor protein into ones which occur in GR, they could change its binding specificity somewhat in the direction of modern GR’s specificity. (All the work was done on molecules in the laboratory. No measurements were made of the selective value of the changes in real organisms in nature. Thus any relevance to actual biology is speculative.) They surmised that a gene duplication plus sequence diversification could have given rise to MR and GR. As I wrote in a comment at the time ( CSC - Michael Behe On The Theory of Irreducible Complexity ), that was interesting work, and the conclusion was reasonable, but the result was exceedingly modest and well within the boundaries that an intelligent design proponent like myself would ascribe to Darwinian processes. After all, the starting point was a protein which binds several steroid hormones, and the ending point was a slightly different protein that binds the same steroid hormones with slightly different strengths. How hard could that be?

Well, it turns out that Darwinian evolution can have a lot of trouble accomplishing even that simple task, or at least its opposite. In the new paper the authors try the reverse experiment. They begin with the more modern hormone receptor (which is more restrictive in the steroids it binds) and ask whether a Darwinian process could get the ancestral activity back (which is more permissive). Their answer is no, it couldn’t. They show that a handful of amino acid residues in the more recent receptor would first have to be changed before it could act as the ancestral form is supposed to have done, and that is very unlikely to occur. In other words, the new starting point is also a protein which binds a steroid hormone, and the new desired ending point is also a slightly different protein that binds steroid hormones. How hard could that be? But it turns out that Darwinian processes can’t reach it, because several amino acids would have to be altered before the target activity kicked in.​
 
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Incariol

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I am a little bit tired of you. It seems you can't ask good question.

If you tell me a few steps involved in a research work, then I can tell you how would creationism fit in. I guarantee you that it would be better than the version done by an evolutionist.

Develop a research question.
Develop hypothesis.
Create protocol.
Apply for grant.
Get grant.
Procure subjects and materials.
Run experiment.
Analyze data.
Write paper discussing results in context of the field.
Submit paper.
Hopefully get published.
Wash, rinse, and repeat.

I'd like to see how "creationism fit in... better" than evolution.
 
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