How Do You Distinguish Biblical History vs Parable?

[humblehumility]

I don't see where everyone is saying the Bible has errors. Where?

http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf

 

[Hentenza]

http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf

Sam Harris pet project? lol Its been refuted so many times that I am surprise that you even bring it up. Here is a good resource that has already countered Sam Harris and his dishonesty.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Bibl...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289580537&sr=1-2

 

[humblehumility]

Sam Harris pet project? lol Its been refuted so many times that I am surprise that you even bring it up. Here is a good resource that has already countered Sam Harris and his dishonesty.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Bibl...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289580537&sr=1-2

I'm not saying all of the contradictions are necessarily true, but if you look at the list and pull out your own Bible to compare, many match up.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm not saying all of the contradictions are necessarily true, but if you look at the list and pull out your own Bible to compare, many match up.

I have and they do not when you consider context and genre. Sam Harris purposely ignores historical facts, literary genres, and issues of textual transmission.

 

[Rikki_renee]

'humblehumillity"....im not trying to be rude, please dont take it that way, but what if it's not errors..what if it is just different ways people interpret things?

 

[humblehumility]

'humblehumillity"....im not trying to be rude, please dont take it that way, but what if it's not errors..what if it is just different ways people interpret things?

Look at all the translations of the Bible, all of the ways to interpret it, all the different denominations of Christianity it's created (and different religions altogether), all the political conflict churches have created, all the killing that has been done in the name of a translation (or mistranslation) of part of the Bible, etc.

God KNEW that writing the Bible in the way that he did would cause all this conflict. Yet for some reason, he couldn't think of a better way to get his message across. Even though he knew...

Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[Rikki_renee]

okay, i understand what you are saying now.

I myself don't understand all the different translations, because were not suppose to change His word. And also the denominations...this is how I look at it..denominations are like cliques. were not going to be in cliques in heaven...you know, like catholics over there...baptists over here...do you get what im saying?

but maybe there was a reason for all the different translations....only God knows.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that there are errors

 

[Hentenza]

Look at all the translations of the Bible, all of the ways to interpret it, all the different denominations of Christianity it's created (and different religions altogether), all the political conflict churches have created, all the killing that has been done in the name of a translation (or mistranslation) of part of the Bible, etc.

God KNEW that writing the Bible in the way that he did would cause all this conflict. Yet for some reason, he couldn't think of a better way to get his message across. Even though he knew...

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Yes, God is fully aware. Yes, He lets is happen. Yes, man is fallible, even Christians lol.

There are many translations because there are many languages in the world, and there are several methods of translation. I will even concede that there are some translation that include biases from the ones who did the translation. The extant mss are the same but man is the translator.

Also, inerrancy only applies to the original autographs not to the copies (although some fallaciously carry it over to copies, ie those that advocate for the KJV only). There are transcribal errors in the copies. Errant man copied inerrant text. None of the transcribal errors affect doctrine or even the message.

We can argue the impact of Christianity in relation to politics but that will lead no where since there are non Christian governments that have created as much havoc or more. Being Christian does not equal perfection. That is yet to happen.

 

[humblehumility]

Yes, God is fully aware. Yes, He lets is happen. Yes, man is fallible, even Christians lol.

It's not just a matter of "God lets it happen", God KNEW it would happen from the moment he created man. God created man to be fallible in this way. Why would he want to do this? So only the "chosen" (whom he knows) will be with him in heaven, while the rest either rot in hell or are at best separated from their father?

 

[razeontherock]

HH, these are valid questions you ask. I post to point out there ARE real answers to this! Hopefully it is obvious to you that they cannot be so simple? I further point out that it is worth the effort to get to the bottom of such things.

What awaits you defies words ...

In the meantime I remind you that when G-d got done creating, he looked and saw that it was good. We can look and see all sorts of things that aren't good. That should tip you off that the purity of the original plan got subverted.

You seem to want to be actively involved in restoring that? That is the purpose of our species, with specializations for each of us. There are Christian theological terms for this, as well as philosophical ones. Me, I'm a musician and need to stop practicing to get to a rehearsal. Pursue your niche!

 

[ebia]

Because Scripture isn't a newspaper article published solely by a human being (accountable for error), it is the word of God. I don't see any reason why God would want to confuse us by making random parts of the Bible literal truth, and random parts parable. Why make it so hard to decipher?

this ability to swap between genres is what gives language its power. It's non-negotiable unless you want to drop back to a really trivial text. Libraries don't contain a variety of genres just to be perverse. Writers don't use multiple genres to confuse. We have and weave together those genres in complex layers because that's what gives language its power.

Why "most", but not all? This is my original question, how do you distinguish between literal and parabolic history?

And it is told directly after we have the literal story listed out for us.

that's what makes that particular story useful to show what parabolic history is.

Genesis is not written in this fashion, we are given only one account. Is that account literal, or parabolic? If it is literal, why? If it is parabolic, why?

look at the questions it is trying to answer:
Who is God
What is he like
Is the world ordered or chaotic
Is the world good or bad
Where do we fit in
What is God's purpose for us
Why is there suffering
Why doesn't God do something about that suffering
What about the other religions around us

Those are the sorts of questions the early Genesis texts are written to answer. They are questions about significance, not about facts-of-what-you-would-have-seen-if-you-had-been-there.

 

[Rikki_renee]

I found this letter cleaning today. It's a "Letter from God", with supporting Bible verses. Please read this, it is very inspirational.


My Child...

You may not know me, but I know everything about you.(Psalm 139:1) I know when you sit down and when you rise up.(Psalm 139:2) I am familiar with all your ways.(Psalm 139:3) Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.(Matthew 10:29-31) For you were made in my image.(Genesis 1:27) In me you live and move and have your being.(Acts 17:28) For you are my offspring.(Acts 17:28) I knew you even before you were conceived.(Jeremiah 1:4-5) I chose you when I planned creation.(Ephesians 1:11-12) You were not a mistake.(Psalm 139:15-16) For all your days are written in my book.(Psalm 139:15-16) I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.(Acts 17:26) You are fearfully and wonderfully made.(Psalm 139:14) I knit you together in your mother's womb.(Psalm 139:13) And brought you forth on the day you were born.(Psalm 71:6) I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me.(John 8:41-44) I am not distant and angry but am the complete expression of love.(1 John 4:16) And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.(1 John 3:1) Simply because you are my child and I am your father.(1 John 3:1) I offer you more than your earthly father even could.(Matthew 7:11) For I am the perfect Father.(Matthew 5:48) Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.(James 1:17) For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.(Matthew 6:31-33) My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.(Jeremiah 29:11) Because I love you with an everlasting love.(Jeremiah 31:3) My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.(Psalm 139:17-18) And I rejoice over you with singing.(Zephaniah 3:17) I will never stop doing good to you.(Jeremiah 32:40) For you are my treasured possession.(Exodus 19:5) I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul.(Jeremiah 32:41) And I want to show you great and marvelous things.(Jeremiah 33:3) If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.(Deuteronomy 4:29) Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart.(Psalm 37:4) For it is I who gave you those desires.(Philippians 2:13) I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine.(Ephesians 3:20) For I am your greatest encourager .(2 Thessalonians 2:16-17) I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles.(2 Corinthians 1:3-4) When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.(Psalm 34:18) As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.(Isaiah 40:11) One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes.(Revelation 21:3-4) And I will take away the pain you have suffered in this earth.(Revelation 21:3-4) I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus.(John 17:23) For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.(John 17:26) He is the exact representation of my being.(Hebrews 1:3) He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you.(Romans 8:31) And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.(2 Corinthians 5:18-19) Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.(2 Corinthians 5:18-19) His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.(1 John 4:10)vI gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love.(Romans 8:31-32) If you receive the gift of my son, Jesus, you receive me.(1 John 2:23) And nothing will ever separate you from my love again.(Romans 8:38-39) Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen.(Luke 15:7) I have always been Father and will always be Father.(Ephesians 3:14-15) My question is...will you be my child?(John 1:12-13) I am waiting for you.(Luke 15:11-32)


Love, Your Father, Almighty God.[/COLOR]

 

[ebia]

I'm not sure why God would need to put in supporting bible verses.

 

[Rikki_renee]

for those that want to contradict everything the bible says
and people interpret things differently

 

[Hentenza]

It's not just a matter of "God lets it happen", God KNEW it would happen from the moment he created man. God created man to be fallible in this way. Why would he want to do this? So only the "chosen" (whom he knows) will be with him in heaven, while the rest either rot in hell or are at best separated from their father?

Basically yes. God has foreknowledge of all future free actions. He knows who will be saved and who will not. No, He did not create people to go to hell that is still our choice. I don't know exactly how that works but there are many theories that attempt to explain it. But they are just that, theories. I am a fallible, finite created being which makes me analogous to God not equal to God. There is an infinite difference between a finite and an infinite being so to say that any finite being can know all there is to know about an infinite being is not reasonable. God has perfect knowledge and has revealed to us as He deemed fit. The rest we will know when we stand before Him.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

It seems most Christians I come across are not creationists or absolute Biblical literalists. When I ask "Do you think the world was made in 7 days?", I get the reply "Of course not, the Bible is not a science book and God was just explaining that he created the universe through the story of creation."

My question: How then do you determine what is literal truth and what is parable? Is that not a slippery slope? Can the entire Bible just be a parable under this logic?

It is kind of baffling that Christians will say the earth was not created in 7 days, but still believe in a magical garden on Earth where the first human being was made from dust.

Unless you don't believe in Adam, which means there was no original sin, which means there is no need to be "saved". Again, the slope is slippery.

The Bible is a library of books. If you compare it to, say, your public library and you went to your local library and picked up a copy of Tolkein's Lord of the Rings trilogy, a book by Stephen Hawking on physics and a biography on the life of Napoleon Bonaparte you'd read each of these books for the literary genre they are. You'd recognize that each of these books fits into their own categories of literature and take that context into account.

The Bible, as I mentioned, is a library of books. Thus one is not going to read the Psalms the same way one would read the Prophet Isaiah or 2 Samuel, these are different categories of literature. Thus literary context must be observed and taken into account. Furthermore we take other factors into account: Where and when was a text written? Who was/were the author(s)? What was going on at the time and location of its penning/redaction/compilation? How do we take into account the cultural ideas of what it meant to write something? How about cultural and linguistic idioms? What is the chief authorial significance and intent in regard to this text or this place in the text?

These are the questions that get asked, while taking into account external factors such as contemporary writings, inscriptions or the like that may help demonstrate how people in this or that culture and time thought and behaved. We make these sorts of inquiries and attempt to extrapolate what the author(s) meant and intended to communicate to their original audience/readership. So, for example, if we were investigating and seeking to make sense of Paul's epistle to the Romans we would ask all kinds of questions about the world and society Paul lived, we'd consider his Jewish background as well as the very Greek and Roman world in which he lived. We'd consider Paul's audience, were they chiefly Jewish or Gentile? What might we be able to tell about the original audience and readers of the epistle that can help us better understand what Paul was telling them? Because if we're going to find any meaning in it it must be in what he meant them to get from it--and thus a proper exegesis means pulling that out from the text and making sense of it for ourselves.

So, as a Christian, I would argue that Genesis is a very specific kind of text, a specific kind of literature, and that in its earliest chapters the point isn't to give us a journalistic historiography, but rather to paint a picture that ultimately describes Israel's identity and place in the grander scheme of the world and God's purposes for Israel as a nation called from among the nations to have a covenant with God. That story could just begin with Moses, or just with Abraham, but those writing/redacting/compiling Genesis wanted to place Israel's own narrative within this grander narrative of the world beginning with Israel's own God creating and fashioning this world all on His own accord. Genesis 1 is mythological, it is an act of Hebrew mythopoiesis to describe the sovereignty of Israel's God and His actions in prehistory that ultimately and providentially lead toward the establishment of His Covenant with Israel on Sinai--thereby giving birth to Israel as the Covenant people and bearers of YHVH's promises.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OldWiseGuy]

--thereby giving birth to Israel as the Covenant people and bearers of YHVH's promises.

-CryptoLutheran

So even though Israel was destroyed as a nation they remained the 'covenant people'. Jesus said 'I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of 'the house of Israel', a reference to the ten-tribed northern kingdom destroyed by the Assyrians in 720 BC. Christ was the mediator of a new covenant, but the people of that covenant remain the physical descendants of Israel.

 

[humblehumility]

God has foreknowledge of all future free actions.

This is wrong. If God has knowledge of all actions we will commit, those actions are not free. They are predetermined, and we are following his script (in millions of cases, the script to do evil...this is what makes atheists "angry").

You would say we are "free" because we have the ability to choose, but the only thing we are able to choose is what God knows we will choose. For instance:

Someone holds a red ball and a blue ball out in front of you, and tells you to pick one. God knows you will pick the red ball, but he doesn't intervene and let's you use your free will to make a choice. You of course choose the red ball, just like God knew. Would you agree with this logic?

Now let's think about this from a different angle. Since God knows with 100% certainty which ball you will choose, you have already picked the red ball before you were even given the free will option to choose between red and blue. You just believe you have a choice in the matter, but the reality is that it has been predetermined by God. You cannot fool God and at the last second choose the blue ball, you will -with absolute certainty- pick the red ball. I'll rephrase: you cannot pick the blue ball. Now, are you really free to choose?

 

[ebia]

How is "God outside of time knows my choice" different in impact in that regard from "a person the future knows my choice"?

 

[ebia]

That said, with John Goldingay and some other theologians I'm increasingly of the view that God chooses not to know in advance all our choices so that his interaction with us is that of a genuine relationship, which necessarily includes discovery.