How do you define the word "all" in these verses?

[Gelb1472]

Salvation is Grace AND faith, and faith is dead apart from works. James takes it so far as to say that justification, which is one of the central parts of salvation, is by works, and not by faith alone. Paul, in writing to the Hebrews, stated that Christ is the Author of Salvation to those who OBEY Him.

Christ, when asked, "How do I obtain eternal life?", answered, "Go and DO thou likewise," after referencing the two greatest commandments and telling the story of the Good Samaritan.

We must note, though, that works are also dead without faith. You cannot be saved by simple philanthropy, because that is not enough, either.

To the early Church, it was not a battle of either/or. It was not either faith OR works. It was both/and:

"Provided they live a worthy life, both those who choose to dwell in the midst of noise and hubbub and those who dwell in monasteries, mountains and caves can achieve salvation. Solely because of their faith in Him God bestows great blessings on them. Hence those who because of their laziness have failed to attain salvation will have no excuse to offer on the day of judgment. For He who promised to grant us salvation simply on account of our faith in Him is not a liar."

—St. Symeon the New Theologian

Elder: "If you would be simple-hearted like the Apostles, would not conceal your human shortcomings, would not pretend to be especially pious, if you would walk free from hypocrisy, then that is the path. While it is easy, not everyone can find it or understand it. This path is the shortest way to salvation and attracts the grace of God. Unpretentiousness, guilelessness, frankness of soul - this is what is pleasing to the Lord, Who is lowly of heart. Except ye become like children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of God (Matt. 18:13)."

—Elder Leonid of Optina

God belongs to all free beings. He is the life of all, the salvation of all —faithful and unfaithful, just and unjust, pious and impious, passionate and dispassionate, monks and laymen, wise and simple, healthy and sick, young and old —just as the effusion of light, the sight of the sun, and the changes of the seasons are for all alike; 'for there is no respect of persons with God.'

—St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 1, Passage 3​

Sculleywr, how then do you reconcile Ephesians 2:8 as quoted above by NoHopeorBobHope?

 

[Clare73]

What I'm attacking is the idea that God designed people for the sole purpose of throwing them in Hell and torturing them.

Okay.

I'm having a hard time understanding what this has to do with what I stated.

 

[sculleywr]

Sculleywr, how then do you reconcile Ephesians 2:8 as quoted above by NoHopeorBobHope?

In the context of the fact that he was talking of works OF THE LAW, reconciling isn't hard. It isn't by works of the Law. Instead, it is by works of FAITHFUL obedience:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5:9)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)

And even Christ Himself:
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" (Matthew 25)

Obedience and salvation are inseparably linked together. The link of the two is Faith.

 

[sculleywr]

Okay.

I'm having a hard time understanding what this has to do with what I stated.

If it didn't, then I'm sorry. I took it that way

 

[Gelb1472]

In the context of the fact that he was talking of works OF THE LAW, reconciling isn't hard. It isn't by works of the Law. Instead, it is by works of FAITHFUL obedience:

Lets take a second to analyze the concept of obedience. Obedience can only come from a command. What else can a person obey aside from a command. The Law is a series of commands. Therefore the concept of obedience implies within its definition, the existence of some law. Usually when the law is referred to in Scripture, it is a reference to the Mosaic law, but we find that is not the only law that exists. There exists the sermon on the mount amongst other commands of Christ. There exists the Pauline law. If in fact we are reconciled not by works of law...do you take this to mean ANY law, or just the Mosaic law??

I believe that we are not reconciled by works of ANY law. I believe that salvation is by grace alone.

Thus my reinterpretation of Matt 25 (the sheep and goats passage) is that Christ separates the righteous part of each human from that same person's unrighteous part. The unrighteous part (the impurity) is burned away, leaving a pure vessel.

 

[sculleywr]

Lets take a second to analyze the concept of obedience. Obedience can only come from a command. What else can a person obey aside from a command. The Law is a series of commands. Therefore the concept of obedience implies within its definition, the existence of some law. Usually when the law is referred to in Scripture, it is a reference to the Mosaic law, but we find that is not the only law that exists. There exists the sermon on the mount amongst other commands of Christ. There exists the Pauline law. If in fact we are reconciled not by works of law...do you take this to mean ANY law, or just the Mosaic law??

I believe that we are not reconciled by works of ANY law. I believe that salvation is by grace alone.

Thus my reinterpretation of Matt 25 (the sheep and goats passage) is that Christ separates the righteous part of each human from that same person's unrighteous part. The unrighteous part (the impurity) is burned away, leaving a pure vessel.

"Works of THE Law", as used by Paul, refers, always, to the works of the Mosaic Law.

And salvation is not by grace alone, because it is by grace and faith, Ephesians 2:8-9. A person is who he is by choice. He chooses to be good or evil, right or wrong. In every telling of the judgment, there are people, WHOLE people, thrown into the lake of fire:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Given the fact that:
1. The Scripture says that people who are separate from Christ are in torment:
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

2. The Scriptures say that some will reject the call of Christ:
Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."


Because of this, we have to believe that there will, sadly, be people in the Lake of Fire.

 

[GraceSeeker]

In 1 Corinthians 15:22, the Scripture states, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"

Compare this verse with Paul's writing in Romans, where he states, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of
righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." (Romans 5:18) and "…For God has committed them all to disobedience), that He might have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32)

In each case the sentence structure is written in parallel structure, therefore how we define "all" in the first half of the sentence must be the same way that we define all in the second half of the sentence.

I look forward to hearing your various well thought interpretations of these verses.

Both the first Adam and the second Adam serve as representatives for all of humankind. Their actions make certain universals truth. But I don't think we can go so far as to say that they cause particularization of sin or salvation in individual lives. They just set the conditions in which these things can occur.

Our original nature is changed by Adam's sin, so that now we too have a nature that is bent toward seeing ourselves as #1, and therefore commit the sin of idolatry, placing a part of creation ahead of the creator as if it (in other words, we) were God. But, praise be to God, Christ's work of reconciliation realizes another change in our nature, and we don't have to live with that misshapen bent guiding our lives. Rather, Jesus gifts us with himself, present by his Spirit. This is very much similar to our original creation, in the image of God, and with the breath of God animating us. Now that same breath moves through our lives once again as Jesus breathes on us the Holy Spirit. Romans 8 tells us that every Christ is endowed with this Spirit filling his/her life. We are indeed new creatures in Christ, no longer bound by the old nature.

So, both potentialities are set before every person. God has chosen to save all who would believe, and he offers that gift to each and everyone. There is no exception. It is God's response to all of humanity. The work of the Cross is a kairos moment that impacts the reality of every person in all time, not just those who lived at the time of Jesus, but both before and after. Those who lived before Christ looked forward to a God who they believed could reconcile them, despite their imperfectness in following him, so that it was not by their works, but by God's grace that they would be saved. And we today likewise recall that our salvation is not a result of our own goodness, for no person is good enough for God, but by virtue of the love of God shown to us in the person of Jesus who, even while we were sinners, died for us. And so we are left with the same choice as Joshua had. And he puts it to us: "Choose this day whom you will serve..." will be it be the gods of this world, your own self interest and the making of yourself as #1 as Adam did, or will you serve the Lord God who has made himself known and reconciled us to himself in the person and work of Jesus?

Having already been chosen by God for salvation by virtue of being human, it is up each person to accept that gift. The gift is made available to all, and yet each person is responsible for their own choice in how they respond to God's grace in the same way that Adam was responsible for how he responded to God in his life. Adam choose to hide from God. But the Son of Man comes to seek and to save that which was lost. Will you let him find (and save) you? "For those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger" (Romans 2:8). "See to it [it's written in the form of a command, 'YOU see to it'], brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called 'Today,' so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness" (Hebrews 3:12-13).

 

[Setyoufree]

I believe that it is only our human pride and selfishness that we are unable or unwilling to seriously consider the possibility that God does in fact save all people at the end of time.

Then faith in Christ is meaningless....

God has saved the human race in Christ, but some will reject God's grace. To reject God's grace is to remain under law (the curse). The Bible clearly teaches that some will be lost.

 

[Setyoufree]

The NT neither presents, nor allows for, any justification in Christ of unbelievers.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love (agape) for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

When you were spiritually dead in your sins, God made YOU "alive" with Christ. Hence, you were saved by grace 2000 years ago!

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In Christ God raised you with Christ. You had a glorified humanity in Christ even before you had faith.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved,

God saved you "in Christ" 2000 years ago. This is the 2nd time Paul mentions this.

through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You, the individual, accepted this truth by faith. You accepted that God saved you in Christ 2000 years ago.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Then faith in Christ is meaningless....

God has saved the human race in Christ, but some will reject God's grace. To reject God's grace is to remain under law (the curse). The Bible clearly teaches that some will be lost.

Not that I agree with universalism, but it only means that faith would not be necessary for salvation (as all will be saved regardless of the presence or absence of faith. But that doesn't make faith in Christ meaningless. It could still be very meaningful for those who had faith.