How do you define the word "all" in these verses?

[Clare73]

If Paul (or God) had not meant ALL (everyone), could he not have said, Jews and Gentiles? I seem to recall other places where Paul (or God) has used a specific reference to Jews and Gentiles.

It seems to me that we read it this way because we have been taught to read it this way. We would rather not explore the ideas that maybe God just meant ALL (everyone). Surely there are verses that refer to various concepts of what English writers have termed Hell, but is there any way that we can take both literally and understand Scripture to be cohesive and non-contradictory.

Perhaps Hell is temporal and God is eternal. Well it certainly does say in the revelation that Death and Hades (both translated Hell in our bibles) will be thrown into the lake of fire. So does this mean that Hell will be thrown into hell, that doesnt seem to make much sense. But it says elsewhere that God is an eternal fire and in fact brimstone is used to signify divinity. So maybe death and Hades (Hell) is actually consumed by God at the end of time. And maybe, just maybe, that means that ALL (everyone) can be saved in the end. And who is the end? Well Jesus said he was the end. So maybe everyone can be saved in Jesus.

Okay, it's 2,000 years later. We have different reference points.

You must consult the whole counsel of God to understand the Scriptures correctly.
The rest of Scripture does not allow it to mean what you propose.

 

[Clare73]

If the first "all" means each individual person, the second "all" would likewise mean each individual person.

If all are born sinful, then all will be raised to eternal life.
If all aren't raised to eternal life, then all aren't born sinful.

That's not a Scriptural rule supported by the rest of Scripture.

 

[sculleywr]

That's not a Scriptural rule supported by the rest of Scripture.

It is, actually, because Parallelism is a common feature of many parts of Scripture, observe:

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path". (Psalms 119:105)

"My son, my teachings you shall not forget and my commands your heart shall guard." (Proverbs 3:1)

Psalm 15:1-3
A1. Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
A2. Who may live on your holy hill?

B1. He whose walk is blameless
B2. and who does what is righteous.

C1. who speaks the truth from his heart
C2. and has no slander on his tongue.

D1. who does his neighbor no wrong
D2. and casts no slur on his fellow man.

In all of these passages, there is parallelism. In the passage at hand, there is parallelism as well.

"All" parallels "all", and Christ parallels Adam. As Adam's sin brought death to all, so Christ's sinlessness brought life to all in His sacrifice

 

[Clare73]

That's not a Scriptural rule supported by the rest of Scripture.

It is, actually, because Parallelism is a common feature of many parts of Scripture, observe:

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path". (Psalms 119:105)

"My son, my teachings you shall not forget and my commands your heart shall guard." (Proverbs 3:1)

Psalm 15:1-3
A1. Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
A2. Who may live on your holy hill?

B1. He whose walk is blameless
B2. and who does what is righteous.

C1. who speaks the truth from his heart
C2. and has no slander on his tongue.

D1. who does his neighbor no wrong
D2. and casts no slur on his fellow man.

In all of these passages, there is parallelism. In the passage at hand, there is parallelism as well.

"All" parallels "all", and Christ parallels Adam. As Adam's sin brought death to all, so Christ's sinlessness brought life to all in His sacrifice.

1) You're confusing figurative parallels with literal parallels.

2) That some parallels in Scripure are exact correspondences (which your examples are not) does not mean all of them are.

You cannot ignore the rest of Scripture in your understanding of any Scripture, which you are doing in this case.

 

[holyrokker]

That's not a Scriptural rule supported by the rest of Scripture.

Could you provide some examples? I'd like to understand your viewpoint.

 

[sculleywr]

1) You're confusing figurative parallels with literal parallels.

2) That some parallels in Scripure are exact correspondences (which your examples are not) does not mean all of them are.

You cannot ignore the rest of Scripture in your understanding of any Scripture, which you are doing in this case.

So, the Scriptures were interpreted wrongly by all people in the Church until when? Why did the people who KNEW THE LANGUAGE believe that all were offered life in Christ?

Try Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr. They weren't exactly very limited in atonement theology.

 

[Clare73]

Could you provide some examples? I'd like to understand your viewpoint.

"You will be his witness to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) of what you have seen and heard." (Ac 22:15)

"For all (Jew as well as Gentile) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and (all--Gentile as well as Jew) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Ro 3:23-24)

"For God has bound all men (Jew as well as Gentile) over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Gentile as well as Jew)." (Ro 11:32)

"For as in Adam all (Jew as well as Gentile) die, so in Christ all (Gentile as well as Jew) will be made alive." (1Co 15:22)

"For God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in the Son, and through the Son to reconcile to himself all things. . .by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (Col 1:19-20)

God has decreed that all things shall come to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) in Christ alone (Gal 3:16; 2Co 1:20) and, therefore, God has shut up all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in guilt and sin (Ro 3:9-12), not leaving even the possibility that man can have anything outside Christ, except a promise to perish (Jn 3:18, 36).

In the context of the rest of the NT, "all" in these verses is limited in scope.

 

[Clare73]

So, the Scriptures were interpreted wrongly by all people in the Church until when?

All will not receive eternal life, as holyrokker stated.

 

[sculleywr]

All will not receive eternal life, as holyrokker stated.

I never said they will all receive eternal life. I said all were offered eternal life. There is a big difference between receiving and being offered.

 

[Clare73]

I never said they will all receive eternal life. I said all were offered eternal life. There is a big difference between receiving and being offered.

Did I say they were not offered eternal life?

 

[Setyoufree]

...how we define "all" in the first half of the sentence must be the same way that we define all in the second half of the sentence.

I look forward to hearing your various well thought interpretations of these verses.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"

Context:

Verse 23: But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was made alive at the resurrection approximately 2000 years ago. "Those who belong to him (through faith)" will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

All mankind has been justified by the doing & dying of Christ. However, this does not mean that all men will go to heaven. Some will reject their justification "in Christ".

Proof: Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[sculleywr]

Context:

Verse 23: But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was made alive at the resurrection approximately 2000 years ago. "Those who belong to him (through faith)" will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

All mankind has been justified by the doing & dying of Christ. However, this does not mean that all men will go to heaven. Some will reject their justification "in Christ".

Proof: Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

All of my THIS!

 

[sculleywr]

Did I say they were not offered eternal life?

What I'm attacking is the idea that God designed people for the sole purpose of throwing them in Hell and torturing them.

 

[Gelb1472]

Context:

Verse 23: But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was made alive at the resurrection approximately 2000 years ago. "Those who belong to him (through faith)" will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

All mankind has been justified by the doing & dying of Christ. However, this does not mean that all men will go to heaven. Some will reject their justification "in Christ".

Proof: Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

This is no proof: As I interprety Romans 5:17. All med, will recieve God's abundant provision of grace and his gift of righteousness.

I believe that it is only our human pride and selfishness that we are unable or unwilling to seriously consider the possibility that God does in fact save all people at the end of time. There are many passages throughout Scripture that speak of the inclusivity of salvation to all. (I just chose my 3 favorites) There are also passages throughout Scripture that seem to speak to the exclusivity of salvation to only the elect.

In this debate, the inclusive passages can be interpreted in light of the exclusive passages or the exclusive passages can be interpreted in light of the inclusive passages. I choose the later. I would rather be wrong and let God choose to damn some, than be wrong about myself damning some that God has saved.

 

[holyrokker]

"You will be his witness to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) of what you have seen and heard." (Ac 22:15)

"For all (Jew as well as Gentile) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and (all--Gentile as well as Jew) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Ro 3:23-24)

"For God has bound all men (Jew as well as Gentile) over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Gentile as well as Jew)." (Ro 11:32)

"For as in Adam all (Jew as well as Gentile) die, so in Christ all (Gentile as well as Jew) will be made alive." (1Co 15:22)

"For God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in the Son, and through the Son to reconcile to himself all things. . .by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (Col 1:19-20)

God has decreed that all things shall come to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) in Christ alone (Gal 3:16; 2Co 1:20) and, therefore, God has shut up all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in guilt and sin (Ro 3:9-12), not leaving even the possibility that man can have anything outside Christ, except a promise to perish (Jn 3:18, 36).

In the context of the rest of the NT, "all" in these verses is limited in scope.

OK. I understand, and I agree with you.

 

[Clare73]

Context:

Verse 23: But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was made alive at the resurrection approximately 2000 years ago. "Those who belong to him (through faith)" will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

All mankind has been justified by the doing & dying of Christ. However, this does not mean that all men will go to heaven. Some will reject their justification "in Christ".

The NT neither presents, nor allows for, any justification in Christ of unbelievers.

Proof: Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

This does not state that all men receive God's gift of righteousness.

 

[sculleywr]

This is no proof: As I interprety Romans 5:17. All med, will recieve God's abundant provision of grace and his gift of righteousness.

I believe that it is only our human pride and selfishness that we are unable or unwilling to seriously consider the possibility that God does in fact save all people at the end of time. There are many passages throughout Scripture that speak of the inclusivity of salvation to all. (I just chose my 3 favorites) There are also passages throughout Scripture that seem to speak to the exclusivity of salvation to only the elect.

In this debate, the inclusive passages can be interpreted in light of the exclusive passages or the exclusive passages can be interpreted in light of the inclusive passages. I choose the later. I would rather be wrong and let God choose to damn some, than be wrong about myself damning some that God has saved.

The end of the Final Judgment disagrees with you:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​

It seems to me that not everyone will receive eternal life.

 

[Gelb1472]

The end of the Final Judgment disagrees with you:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​

It seems to me that not everyone will receive eternal life.

I have heard this criticism before. But when we consider that all of us do those things at some times and do not do those things at other times, it would be easy to consider that all of of have a little bit of sheep and a little bit of goat in each of us.

My view is that the WORD (the logos) seperates joint from marrow or in other words seperates the righteous from the unrighteous within each of us.

If we interpret this verse otherwise, it certainly seems like salvation is a matter of works, and not of grace.

 

[Gelb1472]

Not so - "not everyone will receive eternal life".

One receives ( or not). Receiving a free gift is not a work. Its a free gift.

If I am understanding you correctly, then we agree. I believe that salvation is a free gift.

What I am saying is that if my salvation is dependent on whether or not I feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the sick, visit those in prison, then my salvation is dependent upon my work and is not a free gift. But we know that salvation IS a free gift, therefore the verse that scully quoted (known as the sheep and the goats) must be talking about something beyond salvation.

I suggest this verse is speaking of purification.

 

[sculleywr]

I have heard this criticism before. But when we consider that all of us do those things at some times and do not do those things at other times, it would be easy to consider that all of of have a little bit of sheep and a little bit of goat in each of us.

My view is that the WORD (the logos) seperates joint from marrow or in other words seperates the righteous from the unrighteous within each of us.

If we interpret this verse otherwise, it certainly seems like salvation is a matter of works, and not of grace.

Salvation is Grace AND faith, and faith is dead apart from works. James takes it so far as to say that justification, which is one of the central parts of salvation, is by works, and not by faith alone. Paul, in writing to the Hebrews, stated that Christ is the Author of Salvation to those who OBEY Him.

Christ, when asked, "How do I obtain eternal life?", answered, "Go and DO thou likewise," after referencing the two greatest commandments and telling the story of the Good Samaritan.

We must note, though, that works are also dead without faith. You cannot be saved by simple philanthropy, because that is not enough, either.

To the early Church, it was not a battle of either/or. It was not either faith OR works. It was both/and:

"Provided they live a worthy life, both those who choose to dwell in the midst of noise and hubbub and those who dwell in monasteries, mountains and caves can achieve salvation. Solely because of their faith in Him God bestows great blessings on them. Hence those who because of their laziness have failed to attain salvation will have no excuse to offer on the day of judgment. For He who promised to grant us salvation simply on account of our faith in Him is not a liar."

—St. Symeon the New Theologian

Elder: "If you would be simple-hearted like the Apostles, would not conceal your human shortcomings, would not pretend to be especially pious, if you would walk free from hypocrisy, then that is the path. While it is easy, not everyone can find it or understand it. This path is the shortest way to salvation and attracts the grace of God. Unpretentiousness, guilelessness, frankness of soul - this is what is pleasing to the Lord, Who is lowly of heart. Except ye become like children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of God (Matt. 18:13)."

—Elder Leonid of Optina

God belongs to all free beings. He is the life of all, the salvation of all —faithful and unfaithful, just and unjust, pious and impious, passionate and dispassionate, monks and laymen, wise and simple, healthy and sick, young and old —just as the effusion of light, the sight of the sun, and the changes of the seasons are for all alike; 'for there is no respect of persons with God.'

—St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 1, Passage 3​