How do you define sin?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is critical that all members of society obey the rules, otherwise we are all in trouble.

Does this include Germany before and during wwII ? (and many other cases/ times/ situations/ when the government is clearly executing innocents) ?

The criminals who murdered many later said just that "we were only following orders" !

 

[Beanieboy]

One example of what specifically ?

The question asked:
When does society over-rule God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The question asked:
When does society over-rule God.

'Slavery', per se, was regulated - there were rules for slaves and for slave-owners, but it was not forbidden by God ....

The way society operated, and operates, it is always in rebellion against God,
as also is the flesh always at war with the spirit in a man , if he is alive in Christ.

 

[Phil W]

Are you saying that you can pick and choose which laws in our country that you will obey?
What happens if everyone starts to do that?
You are on very dangerous grounds with your viewpoint.

It is only dangerous if the wicked hold to it.
If the Godly follow the rule of God first, they are no threat to anyone at all.
Is loving God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves dangerous?

The law regarding freedom to abort is one that you have a personal choice in.

I have a personal choice in all I do, thanks be to God.

A taxation law must be obeyed by all.
Speeding laws must be obeyed.
It is critical that all members of society obey the rules, otherwise we are all in trouble.

If everybody jumped off a bridge, would you?
Some "laws" are dangerous.

 

[Phil W]

Slavery is one example.

What troubles me is the way that some modern Christians try to use the Bible to validate sin.
Scott Lively, for example, a conservative evangelical Christian, known for his propaganda such as The Pink Swastika, claiming homosexuals created the Nazi Party (despite the group being with the Jews and others who were gassed), went to Uganda, and having ties to religious and political leaders convinced the government to make homosexuality illegal, with prison time and even execution, misrepresenting the Will of God to be to punish homosexual with death by using Leviticus.
He justifies his sin of representing lies as facts, lying to his neighbor, going to other countries to get them to pass the so-called "Kill the Gays Bill" as simply doing God's will, following scripture, and trying to discourage homosexuality.

A friend of mine from Uganda said it created an atmosphere of paranoia, fear and hatred that made the country extremely violent, violence towards glbt common, and even had one friend who was straight but beaten to death simply because he was perceived as gay by his attackers.
Is any of this loving your neighbor?

There have been a number of Christian groups fighting against glbt equality in jobs, health insurance, and housing. Those fighting against making discrimination illegal simply claim the oppose homosexuality, and to have protections against being unfairly fired from a job, for example, is promoting homosexuality.

What it does promote is discrimination, and unfairness, and often, violence of a marginalized group. That is not loving your neighbor.

Sounds like one evil fighting another evil.
The outcome will be no winner.
Just destruction and further violence.

BTW, your idea of "modern Christians" is really a view of "modern false Christians".

 

[Phil W]

In God's Word, society is called death dealing (pernicious, evil, wicked) ...

Is that "over-ruling" God though ?

They are trying, and may seem to be in charge for a while, but God will end that in his time.

 

[Phil W]

'Slavery', per se, was regulated - there were rules for slaves and for slave-owners, but it was not forbidden by God ....

The way society operated, and operates, it is always in rebellion against God,
as also is the flesh always at war with the spirit in a man , if he is alive in Christ.

Not forbidden by God?
How does slavery "love our neighbor"?

 

[HARK!]

How does slavery "love our neighbor"?

Everyone is a slave; whether or not he acknowledges it. I'm a slave to YHWH; but being a slave to YHWH doesn't make me feel any less loved by him.

 

[Phil W]

Everyone is a slave; whether or not he acknowledges it. I'm a slave to YHWH; but being a slave to YHWH doesn't make me feel any less loved by him.

You chose to be a servant of God.
If someone forced you to obey Him would you still love Him?

 

[HARK!]

You chose to be a servant of God.
If someone forced you to obey Him would you still love Him?

No one can force anyone to obey anyone. We are free to make our own choices, and reap the consequences of those choices accordingly.

 

[Soyeong]

Sin is often talked about in Christianity, but I wonder if we understand what sin is differently.

My understanding of sin is doing something that is selfish, which in turn, brings harm to another.

For example, a married man sees a woman he is attracted to and acts on it. He will need to lie to his wife, breaking their trust, and feeling betrayed. She will feel angry, jealous and mistrustful of her husband sleeping with another, and hurt. When the husband made this choice, he acted selfishly, rather than loving his wife.

Lying breeds mistrust. Killing breeds fear, need for revenge, etc.
All laws are there for logical reasons.

One cannot text and drive just "because it's a rule," but to prevent accidents, injury and death.

And as Christ said, all laws are fulfilled when loving your neighbor as yourself.

Do others understand sin differently?

I think that we can can do things that are selfish that that are for our own good, yet also benefits others. For example, the things that a man does to improve his relationship with his wife and children are both for his good and their good.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). God's ways are His character traits, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7), and many others, so the Israelite needed to be instructed about who God is and how to walk in Gods ways in order to be equipped to be a light and a blessing to the nations, and so God's law was given for that purpose. So the mark is God's character, God's law is His instructions for how to express His character traits, sin is missing the mark, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). So by teaching us about what it means to hit the mark of God's character traits, the law also teaches us by contrast about what it means to miss the mark.

 

[Phil W]

No one can force anyone to obey anyone.

Were that the case, there would be no slavery.

We are free to make our own choices, and reap the consequences of those choices accordingly.

We may indeed be called to obey or die, in the future.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not forbidden by God?
How does slavery "love our neighbor"?

Read the regulations concerning slaves and the owners of slaves in Scripture. It was a means of survival, controlled/ regulated for the good of everyone, and was (and is) something that is needed as God says. Already, in any case, contrary to God's Way, there are more slaves, and more deceived persons, in the USA, than ever before. Also, after the civil war, which we were once taught was a war to end slavery in the south, the condition and the number of slaves greatly worsened AFTER the north won ! ..... this is not even in dispute.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everyone is a slave; whether or not he acknowledges it. I'm a slave to YHWH; but being a slave to YHWH doesn't make me feel any less loved by him.

Better and Blessed to be a slave of YHWH , than like the rest of the world slaves of the enemy, slaves of sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They are trying, and may seem to be in charge for a while, but God will end that in his time.

I did not say, and Scripture does not say, that they are in charge.

It is written that society is death dealing (every day, every country, every government with almost no if any exception) ..... key word (for searching) > "pernicious" in Galatians.

 

[HARK!]

Were that the case, there would be no slavery.

Again we are all slaves, whether or not we choose to acknowledge that.

 

[HARK!]

Better and Blessed to be a slave of YHWH , than like the rest of the world slaves of the enemy, slaves of sin.

Exactly! Being a slave is an honor; when one has a righteous master.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Exactly! Being a slave is an honor; when one has a righteous master.

And at other times, what are the instructions to slaves ? (even of harsh masters)

Obey them honestly, and without rebelling, without even getting grouchy, obey then just as if obeying Jesus.... and actually yes, obeying Jesus doing so.....

 

[klutedavid]

Does this include Germany before and during wwII ? (and many other cases/ times/ situations/ when the government is clearly executing innocents) ?

The criminals who murdered many later said just that "we were only following orders" !

I was referring to civil law rather than more extreme examples such as Germany during WWII.

 

[klutedavid]

I think that we can can do things that are selfish that that are for our own good, yet also benefits others. For example, the things that a man does to improve his relationship with his wife and children are both for his good and their good.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). God's ways are His character traits, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7), and many others, so the Israelite needed to be instructed about who God is and how to walk in Gods ways in order to be equipped to be a light and a blessing to the nations, and so God's law was given for that purpose. So the mark is God's character, God's law is His instructions for how to express His character traits, sin is missing the mark, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). So by teaching us about what it means to hit the mark of God's character traits, the law also teaches us by contrast about what it means to miss the mark.

A more accurate description of the bull's eye of God's character, is love from a pure heart.

Love does not steal or covet, lie or kill.