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How do you defile yourself with a woman?

Sephania

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So as Israel "went a whoring" it is in that context you think?

But the problem I guess I am having is that it says "with women", plural or is that artistic translation? I am not familiar with the Greek enough, though I started studying it back 20 years ago I never continued on :blush:, It was all Greek to me!


14 And I looked and saw a Lamb standing on Mount Tsiyon, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thou- sand, having His Father’s Namev written upon their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice out of the heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder, and I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a renewed song before the throne, and before the four living crea- tures, and the elders. And no one was able to learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4They are those who were not defiledwith women, for they are maidens.w They are those following the Lamb wherever He leads them on. They were redeemed from among men, being first-fruits to Elohim and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no false- hood, for they are blameless before the throne of Elohim.
 
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koilias

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I little note. We can understand more about the 144,000 by comparing with contemporary apocalypses during Yohannan's time. The 144,000 are the Jews who would be "preserved" during the tribulation...HaNotzrim, the "preserved ones", or "kept ones". Yeshua was (and will be) the leader of the Notzrim, as Yohannan's apocalypse makes clear.
 
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koilias

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Here are the relevant passages to study, which occur in 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra:

From 2 Barukh:


Chapter forty four

And they will participate in the consolation of Zion. 8 For that which is now is nothing. But that which is in the future will be very great. 9 For everything will pass away which is corruptible, and everything that dies will go away, and all present time will be forgotten, and there will be no remembrance of the present time which is polluted by evils. 10 For he who runs now runs in vain and he who is happy will fall quickly and be humiliated. 11 For that which will be in the future, that is what one will look for, and that which comes later, that is what we shall hope for. For there is a time that does not pass away. 12 And that period is coming which will remain forever; and there is the new world which does not carry back to corruption those who enter into its beginning, and which has no mercy on those who come into torment of those who are living in it, and it does not carry to perdition. 13 For those are the ones who will inherit this time of which it is spoken, and to these
is the heritage of the promised time. 14 These are they who prepared for themselves treasures of wisdom. And stores of insight are found with them. 15 And they have not withdrawn form mercy and they have preserved the truth of the Law. For the coming world will be given to these, but the habitation of the many others will be in the fire.




4 Ezra:

From ch. 2: (This passage shows perhaps some signs of Christian redaction, being influenced by Revelation, which is very interesting--note how the redactor conflates the 144,000 who were "sealed" with "the great multitude" praising before the throne. The influence could be a source both the Revelation writer and 4 Ezra have in common however. Note the importance of Isaiah 35 and 42.)

[15] "Mother, embrace your sons; bring them up with gladness, as does the dove; establish their feet, because I have chosen you, says the Lord.
[16] And I will raise up the dead from their places, and will bring them out from their tombs, because I recognize my name in them.
[17] Do not fear, mother of sons, for I have chosen you, says the Lord.
[18] I will send you help, my servants Isaiah and Jeremiah. According to their counsel I have consecrated and prepared for you twelve trees loaded with various fruits,
[19] and the same number of springs flowing with milk and honey, and seven mighty mountains on which roses and lilies grow; by these I will fill your children with joy.
[20] Guard the rights of the widow, secure justice for the fatherless, give to the needy, defend the orphan, clothe the naked,
[21] care for the injured and the weak, do not ridicule a lame man,**Isaiah 35:3-6** protect the maimed, and let the blind man have a vision of my splendor. **Isaiah 35:5, 42:7**
[22] Protect the old and the young within your walls;
[23] When you find any who are dead, commit them to the grave and mark it, and I will give you the first place in my resurrection. **this is "la'asot Hesed", par excellance, btw**
[24] Pause and be quiet, my people, because your rest will come.
[25] Good nurse, nourish your sons, and strengthen their feet.
[26] Not one of the servants whom I have given you will perish, for I will require them from among your number.
[27] Do not be anxious, for when the day of tribulation and anguish comes, others shall weep and be sorrowful, but you shall rejoice and have abundance.
[28] The nations shall envy you but they shall not be able to do anything against you, says the Lord.
[29] My hands will cover you, that your sons may not see Gehenna.
[30] Rejoice, O mother, with your sons, because I will deliver you, says the Lord.
[31] Remember your sons that sleep, because I will bring them out of the hiding places of the earth, and will show mercy to them; for I am merciful, says the Lord Almighty.
[32] Embrace your children until I come, and proclaim mercy to them; because my springs run over, and my grace will not fail."
[33] I, Ezra, received a command from the Lord on Mount Horeb to go to Israel. When I came to them they rejected me and refused the Lord's commandment.
[34] Therefore I say to you, O nations that hear and understand, "Await your shepherd; he will give you everlasting rest, because he who will come at the end of the age is close at hand.
[35] Be ready for the rewards of the kingdom, because the eternal light will shine upon you for evermore.
[36] Flee from the shadow of this age, receive the joy of your glory; I publicly call on my Savior to witness.
[37] Receive what the Lord has entrusted to you and be joyful, giving thanks to him who has called you to heavenly kingdoms.
[38] Rise and stand, and see at the feast of the Lord the number of those who have been sealed.**Rev 6:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed, etc... Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads...3 They sang as it were a new song (Isaiah 42:10) before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. (Isaiah 35:10) 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. **








[39] Those who have departed from the shadow of this age have received glorious garments from the Lord.
[40] Take again your full number, O Zion, and conclude the list of your people who are clothed in white, who have fulfilled the law of the Lord.
[41] The number of your children, whom you desired, is full; beseech the Lord's power that your people, who have been called from the beginning, may be made holy."
[42] I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs. **Rev 6:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"**
[43] In their midst was a young man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they. And I was held spellbound.
[44] Then I asked an angel, "Who are these, my lord?" **Rev 6:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.**

[45] He answered and said to me, "These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms."
[46] Then I said to the angel, "Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?"
[47] He answered and said to me, "He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world." So I began to praise those who had stood valiantly for the name of the Lord.
[48] Then the angel said to me, "Go, tell my people how great and many are the wonders of the Lord God which you have seen."

From Chapter 7:
[88] "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.
[89] During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly.
[90] Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:
[91] First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.
[92] The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death.
[93] The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them.
[94] The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust.
[95] The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days.
[96] The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.
[97] The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.
[98] The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
[99] This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
[100] I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"
[101] He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
 
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koilias

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The references to Isaiah 42 are important because it is there where we have the reference to the Messiah being a "preserved one". Yeshua haNotzri. Yeshua the Preserved One. The early followers of Yeshua called themselves "Notzrim"

ו אֲנִי יְהוָה קְרָאתִיךָ בְצֶדֶק, וְאַחְזֵק בְּיָדֶךָ; וְאֶצָּרְךָ, וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם--לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם

Isaiah 42:6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and have taken hold of thy hand, and preserved thee, and set thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the nations;
 
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visionary

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[29] My hands will cover you, that your sons may not see Gehenna.
So the way to live untouched by the time of trouble that will soon befall the world is to follow the seven orders?

Psalm 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. 2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works. 3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. 4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. 5 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; 6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. 7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. 8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: 11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. 13 When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; 15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. 16 Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread. 17 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant: 18 Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron: 19 Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him. 20 The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free. 21 He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance: 22 To bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom. 23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham. 24And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. 25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants. 26 He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen. 27 They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham. 28 He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word. 29 He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish. 30 Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings. 31 He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts. 32 He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land. 33 He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts. 34 He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number, 35 And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground. 36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength. 37 He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes. 38 Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them. 39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night. 40 The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven. 41 He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river. 42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant. 43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness: 44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people; 45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.
 
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koilias

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visionary said:
So the way to live untouched by the time of trouble that will soon befall the world is to follow the seven orders?
Yes...I believe so. But if you study the "seven orders" notice what they have in common: Profound Trust. Faith!:)

Look at how the seventh order is worded:

[98] The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
 
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koilias

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By the way, part of the reason why I bring up these other apocalypses to bear on our understanding of Revelation is that they are useful in helping us locate the "testimonia" passages. A testimonia is a set of associated Biblical passages which are commonly grouped together for certain themes. In this case, the theme is the "preserved ones" of the tribulation. In studying the book of Revelation, the most important task of the exegete is to find the testimonial complexes that drive the passages of Revelation.

We note that Isaiah 35 and 42 were important in this testimonial complex...many other passages of scripture are also alluded to, but these are among the most important. I believe that the central passage which drives the entire testimonial complex of the "144,000" is Jeremiah 31. Study that passage carefully...it tells us what the purpose of the "great multitude" is. From 4 Ezra, we get the impression that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are the same. The Revelation writer, however, sees the 144,000 as the "watchmen" and the "planters" (Notzer, btw, also means "caretaker" or "watchman"), and they are separate from the "great multitude". Jeremiah 31 begins to tell us who the 144,000 Notzrim are, what they are to do, what role they play in Israel's history.

Note the rich array of apocalyptic themes Jeremiah 31 also brings up: the Ga'al (kinsman redeemer) is mentioned. So is the Good Shepherd (who "scatters" then "gathers"). HaShem becomes a "Father" to Jacob. A woman is in labor, etc, etc.
 
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koilias

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Oh yea, I started calling the 144,000 "Notzrim" ("watchmen"). I forgot Jeremiah 31 actually does call them "Notzrim"...it doesn't use "Shomrim", but "Notzrim"! :) It is one of the rare instances in scripture where this word is used....From this instance, the followers of Yeshua derived their name. Obviously, the root "nun, tzadi, resh" also forms the words "Branch" and Yeshua's hometown "Natzeret"...And the gospel writers do link this to "Notzer" midrashically. However, it was Jeremiah 31's "Notzrim" which was the basis of the name.
ד עוֹד תִּטְּעִי כְרָמִים, בְּהָרֵי שֹׁמְרוֹן; נָטְעוּ נֹטְעִים, וְחִלֵּלוּ

Yirmiyahu 31:4 Again shalt thou plant vineyards upon the mountains of Samaria; the planters (not'im) shall plant, and shall have the use thereof.

ה כִּי יֶשׁ-יוֹם, קָרְאוּ נֹצְרִים בְּהַר אֶפְרָיִם; קוּמוּ וְנַעֲלֶה צִיּוֹן, אֶל-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ

31:5 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen (notzrim) shall call upon the mount Ephraim: arise ye, and let us go up to Zion, unto the LORD our God.'
Note the rhyme between "Not'im" ("Planters") and "Notzrim" ("Caretakers")...The 144,000 are both "Planters" and "Caretakers".
 
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visionary

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From Chapter 7:
[88] "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.
[89] During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly.
[90] Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:
[91] First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.
[92] The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death.
[93] The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them.
[94] The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust.
[95] The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days.
[96] The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.
[97] The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.
[98] The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
[99] This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
[100] I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"
[101] He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
Where did this come from.....I can't find it.
 
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visionary

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koilias said:
Oh yea, I started calling the 144,000 "Notzrim" ("watchmen"). I forgot Jeremiah 31 actually does call them "Notzrim"...it doesn't use "Shomrim", but "Notzrim"! :) It is one of the rare instances in scripture where this word is used....From this instance, the followers of Yeshua derived their name. Obviously, the root "nun, tzadi, resh" also forms the words "Branch" and Yeshua's hometown "Natzeret"...And the gospel writers do link this to "Notzer" midrashically. However, it was Jeremiah 31's "Notzrim" which was the basis of the name. Note the rhyme between "Not'im" ("Planters") and "Notzrim" ("Caretakers")...The 144,000 are both "Planters" and "Caretakers".
I knew there was a difference between the two people....those in the temple verse those who were in the outer court

Revelation 11

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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koilias

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visionary said:
Where did this come from.....I can't find it.
It comes from ch. 7 of 4 Ezra (2nd Esdras). It was written by a non-Christian Notzer/Hassid c. 100 CE, and redacted by a Christian.

4 Ezra, btw, is arranged around seven visions which are thematically linked to the seven days of Gen. 1. It has a "hexaemeral" literary structure. The same literary device which Revelation uses.
 
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koilias

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Zayit said:
Is a watchman a man or is that in the 'mankind' form?
Well, technically any male plural form can include females. A "notzer" would be a man, yes, otherwise it would be "notzerah"...but Yirmiyahu uses the plural form.

A "watchman" can be a female. Shulamit, Shlomo's love in Shir haShirim was a "watchman" or "caretaker"...Using the northern dialect form of the word "Noterah" (same thing as a "notzerah")

A Noter or Notzer is the person who guards vineyards by standing on a watchtower...to make sure that foxes or men do not come and steal the grapes.
 
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koilias

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Actually Jeremiah 31:12 says, "Then shall the (female) virgin rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old together". It doesn't say that the young and old men are "virgins". And it says "young men"...these can't be females. But the females are included collectively under "virgin", and that is clearly female.:)

...Apparently, married women are not included in the dance.:(...Unless they are "old".:D
 
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visionary

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Psalm 17:8
Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalm 36:7
How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Psalm 91:4
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psalm 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. 7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. 9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; 10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. 14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. 15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
 
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koilias

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Vis...I love your stream of consciousness way of linking the Psalms to this discussion.;) It's a good quality to have. Learn to read the Tenakh in Hebrew, and you'll get good at spotting the testimonia complexes of Revelation.:)

Well...we've found a way to include women among the 144,000 using Yirmiyahu. The question remains whether the Revelation writer sees it that way. To his Hellenistic crowd in Asia Minor, it is sociologically plausible that our writer was interpreted with the misogynistic attitudes of the Greeks. But thinking in Hebrew, inclusion of females is allowed. This is concurred by the prooftext of Yirmiyahu 31.
 
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