How do you choose to believe?

In situ said:

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

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Easy. God, being the Creator, can do whatever he wants with his creation. If he chooses to create orangutans and not give them eternal life in heaven after death, he can do the same with any human he doesn't choose to forgive for sinning against Him.

In situ said:

So you believe in a god that has favorites?

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Yes. But that isn't the point. The point is that there is no reason why such a God cannot exist.

In situ said:

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

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Like not believing cigarettes cause cancer?
Or stopping to believe that smoking is healthy?

Are you familiar with the Santa Clause issue?

In situ said:

Are you saying God can harden the heart in a person so he cannot believe - that God may take away a persons free will?

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I didn't say anything like that.

In situ said:

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)

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If a man can believe he is a woman trapped in a man's body without any physical evidence then I guess another person can believe in God without any physical evidence. Additionally, if someone does not believe in a god why would they believe that that god they do not believe in could punish them? Of course people need evidence before they believe something, but the evidence does not have to be evidence that someone else that believes otherwise would accept as convincing. What direct physical evidence is there that any number of things exist that people choose to believe exist because of indirect physical evidence?

Albion said:

Easy. God, being the Creator, can do whatever he wants with his creation. If he chooses to create orangutans and not give them eternal life in heaven after death, he can do the same with any human he doesn't choose to forgive for sinning against Him.

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That's what I find, beyond any reasonable attempt at reinterpretation, in Romans 9.
Paul uses and expands on Malachi's “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" making it clear that the issue is not one of Esau's behaviour, but of God's sovereign will:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It is repeated.
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.".
(it does not appear that He wants to have mercy on everyone...)

"God chooses" is unmissable in Pauls message.
"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose election might stand:"

This is the chapter where Paul compares humanityto mere clay, do be done with as the potter wishes, (and no complaints or come-backs.). Including those made, chosen to be "vessels of destruction"... Shaped from their start to be wrecked.
The whole extinction of the dinosaurs was settled before they appeared.

This fits with the opening of Ephesians where those who were to be Christians are declared to have been picked before the earth was even made.
Chosen and predestined.

So it's all about God's will, and whatever God does is right.
It's Potter's Right's, Creator's Rights, Deity's Rights.
Like diplomatic immunity only much more so.


If Paul and the bible are right.
Now, what am I going to choose to believe?
Though if Paul and the bible are right I have no real choice, whether I turn theist or atheist... It'll be what God wanted.

I used to believe Paul was right.But the more I read and studied the more I found seemingly sound reasons not to believe.
So unless I'm being "got at" and being made an atheist, that is my choice.
And as an ex-theist I'm hardly ruling out the possibility beforehand.
If God exists, God then knows what it would take to make me a believer. There's no impossible barrier, and "show me why I shouldn't accept what I've found out" was a regular prayer for a couple of years.

So..I think I have real choice. And that, subject to new well-tested evidence, I've made a reasonable and sound one.
After all, I'm betting my life and hypothetical afterlife on it.

I certainly am not going to argue against what you've said here, but I have been thinking that there's something missing from this whole thread (although the author of the OP may have intended to keep the topic to just the parameters he chose).

I'm speaking of the steady reference to "belief" and "believe." When, however, the issue includes the idea of salvation or punishment, it should be remembered that belief is not faith.

It's only faith that saves, and this is a commitment that goes beyond mere belief. To believe in a god accomplishes nothing in itself, according to Christian theology. So if we can choose to believe (as was the question asked by the OP) it doesn't really matter much. It's an interesting question, I agree, but that's about all.

Basically ~do you hold to free will or predestination~

Predestination, because I believe that God is omnipotent. Others should to

Crowns&Laurels said:

Basically ~do you hold to free will or predestination~

Predestination, because I believe that God is omnipotent. Others should to

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I think I'd say "because I believe that God is sovereign." The fact that he is omnipotent doesn't in itself require him to have predestined anything.

In situ said:

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

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I agree in principle, but belief is also determined by what you think you know for sure. Some people who think something may be true (or false), or who are uncertain of their belief, will focus only on arguments and evidence that support their inclination, which can, over time, turn a predilection into a belief or strengthen a faltering belief.

Albion said:

Easy. God, being the Creator, can do whatever he wants with his creation. If he chooses to create orangutans and not give them eternal life in heaven after death, he can do the same with any human he doesn't choose to forgive for sinning against Him.

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Yes, an omnipotent being can be as evil to his creation as he wants. The problem is only when explaining just how one can view such a being as "good". What does good even mean here?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

Yes, an omnipotent being can be as evil to his creation as he wants. The problem is only when explaining just how one can view such a being as "good". What does good even mean here?


eudaimonia,

Mark

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What it means "here" (in this thread) I don't know. But in Christianity it means that mankind was made to "have it all" but turned against God and forfeited that. Still, God was "good" enough to make it possible for some, at least, of his human creatures to be forgiven their transgressions and have eternal happiness with him anyway.

Incidentally, you said that God can be as evil to his creation as he wants. That isn't what I said and I wouldn't agree that God has been "evil" if he chooses some and doesn't choose others or if he punishes some for their own evilness.

I'm a bit confused. Is this thread about God's choosing to believe or our choosing to believe?

SkyWriting said:

Are you familiar with the Santa Clause issue?

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That was a movie starring Tim Allen, wasn't it?

Albion said:

When, however, the issue includes the idea of salvation or punishment, it should be remembered that belief is not faith.

It's only faith that saves, and this is a commitment that goes beyond mere belief. To believe in a god accomplishes nothing in itself, according to Christian theology.

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Agreed, but that makes "faith" a complex term in itself.
It's not an intrinsic virtue, as a Christian evangelist would wish people to *stop* having faith in whatever they currently believe in order to have faith in Jesus Christ.
And on mundane as well as in spiritual terms, firm faith that is misplaced, allocated to an object, person or principle not worthy of it, that is a recipe for disaster.

Chris.

Chris B said:

Agreed, but that makes "faith" a complex term in itself.

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Yes, but so are most things connected to religion.

It's not an intrinsic virtue, as a Christian evangelist would wish people to *stop* having faith in whatever they currently believe in order to have faith in Jesus Christ.

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That's not a problem, however. Those are two different uses of the word.

And on mundane as well as in spiritual terms, firm faith that is misplaced, allocated to an object, person or principle not worthy of it, that is a recipe for disaster.

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Of course. But again, that's to use the word in two entirely different senses.

Chris B,

If God 'hated' Esau, why did God then give Esau, and his tribe, the area of Mount Seir?

Albion said:

Yes, but so are most things connected to religion.


That's not a problem, however. Those are two different uses of the word.


Of course. But again, that's to use the word in two entirely different senses.

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I can see that, agree, and try to so denote, but I see postings here and elsewhere which do not seem even to have noticed the distinction. But to go further would, I think, be straying.