How do we support Israel and not support violence?

[HonestTruth]

What makes somebody a Jew and therefore entitled to the land? I'm sure if most people looked back at their genealogy, they could find somebody related to Abraham. So if it was based on blood, then a large amount of the human populates is entitled to the land. If it is religion then denying Christ is acceptable.

The problem is that nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Israel belongs only to Jews as is so commonly taught in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows the Land is preserved as inheritance to Abraham and his seed - this encompasses all 12 tribes, not just Jews. Further, in the New Testament (as I have previously quoted) all who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah are now "fellowheirs" to that promise. This means Muslims who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah are heirs as well.

This is a point I have documented on this forum numerous times previously. If only Christian professing people would just read their Bible they would know that Zionism is inherently antichrist as no one is empowered to usurp his role in reestablishing the Kingdom.

 

[football5680]

The problem is that nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Israel belongs only to Jews as is so commonly taught in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows the Land is preserved as inheritance to Abraham and his seed - this encompasses all 12 tribes, not just Jews. Further, in the New Testament (as I have previously quoted) all who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah are now "fellowheirs" to that promise. This means Muslims who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah are heirs as well.

This is a point I have documented on this forum numerous times previously. If only Christian professing people would just read their Bible they would know that Zionism is inherently antichrist as no one is empowered to usurp his role in reestablishing the Kingdom.

Muslims wouldn't be included because they don't acknowledge the true Jesus.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

Quran 9:30 says we are deluded for holding the belief that Jesus is the son of God and it calls on Allah to destroy us.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

At this point the newly formed state of Israel decided that, in the interest of peace, they would seek a two state deal with the Palestinians who lived there and share what was legally Israel's. Do you know what the Palestinians did? They refused to share the land that wasn't even theirs, they refused peace, they declared war. They lost...and they've simply been trying to get it back ever since.

So let's not pretend like the Israelis just showed up one day and started butchering the natives. The Palestinians are just reaping what they've sowed.

They refused to share the land because they believed that the new State of Israel would be immediately destroyed by the Arab states that had gathered to do just that, and that they, the Palestinians, would get all the land.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Prophecy reveals the bigger picture, that the fate and future of humankind depends on what happens in and to Jerusalem, physically and spiritually.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They refused to share the land because they believed that the new State of Israel would be immediately destroyed by the Arab states that had gathered to do just that, and that they, the Palestinians, would get all the land.

Could be so...I'm inclined to think that even had no war occurred, Palestinians wouldn't be sharing.

I've never looked into it, but I wonder why Palestinians accept subjugation under the Ottomans...they seem so entirely disagreeable to being ruled. If I'm not mistaken, the Ottomans ruled that land for a long long time, and they certainly weren't Palestinian.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

^ Zeek: None of that explains how that the "State of Israel" equals the "Kingdom of Israel" of Biblical history.

The State of Israel is a remnant of the Jews of the Diaspora that God returned to begin end time events that will see the return of Jesus Christ. There will be no peace there, and no restitution of the "Kingdom of Israel". The millennial Kingdom of Christ will begin there however.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, for the reasons discussed on other threads.

Please read the Bible's teaching on this matter: only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom. He will do so in Peace without shedding blood. Zionists have created this false state and killed many in the effort to do so. Therefore, it is NOT the true Israel.

Here's the bible teaching on the matter.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[Rationalt]

We support Israel because they are a consistent ally in the middle east...something that we don't have in other middle eastern countries mainly because of how we treat them. That said...

I genuinely believe Israel has tried a peaceful, diplomatic approach to its neighbors several times in its history and it's failed every time. What exactly do Israel's detractors want Israel to do? How do you make peace with neighbours who refuse to recognize your right to exist?

It's a problem that Israel will continue to face until 1 of 2 things happen....

1. Israel's neighbors accept Israel's right to exist and cease all aggression.

2. Israel utterly destroys its neighbors.

The reason this conflict seems to never end is because of the way war changed post WW2. The international community has created a more "humane" standard of war that results in never ending conflict and never ending profits for arms manufacturers.

Humane standards preclude destroying groups like ISIS.

 

[Rationalt]

That is one exciting reading.I am wondering why the nt failed to prophecy a certain cult of 7th century arabia wiping out Christianity in large areas.

Here's the bible teaching on the matter.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[HonestTruth]

quoting a reply to me from OldWiseGuy,

"Please read the Bible's teaching on this matter: only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom. He will do so in Peace without shedding blood. Zionists have created this false state and killed many in the effort to do so. Therefore, it is NOT the true Israel.

Here's the bible teaching on the matter."





Here is a better series of extracts from the Bible which address the issue that only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom:



Acts 1:6,7

Daniel 7:13 et seq

II Samuel 7:11-16

Isaiah 43:5,6

Jeremiah 30:3




Since this nation which calls itself "Israel" was not created by the Messiah (note that most of its citizenry denies that Jesus is Messiah) it cannot be the True Kingdom. On that basis, no one who calls himself a Christian can support that country or its politics. The reader of this post is free to read those extracts and is welcomed to try to prove to me that any of it is incorrect.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

quoting a reply to me from OldWiseGuy,

"Please read the Bible's teaching on this matter: only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom. He will do so in Peace without shedding blood. Zionists have created this false state and killed many in the effort to do so. Therefore, it is NOT the true Israel.

Here's the bible teaching on the matter."





Here is a better series of extracts from the Bible which address the issue that only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom:



Acts 1:6,7

Daniel 7:13 et seq

II Samuel 7:11-16

Isaiah 43:5,6

Jeremiah 30:3




Since this nation which calls itself "Israel" was not created by the Messiah (note that most of its citizenry denies that Jesus is Messiah) it cannot be the True Kingdom. On that basis, no one who calls himself a Christian can support that country or its politics. The reader of this post is free to read those extracts and is welcomed to try to prove to me that any of it is incorrect.

Religion aside the West is caught in the vortex of prophecy along with the State of Israel.

 

[HonestTruth]

... and by failing to obey the Law it only gets worse for everyone.

Therefore, the solution is for the world to dismiss this false state as anti-Christ by obeying the Bible's Law which teaches that the Promised Land belongs to Abraham, his seed, and to all who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

... and by failing to obey the Law it only gets worse for everyone.

Therefore, the solution is for the world to dismiss this false state as anti-Christ by obeying the Bible's Law which teaches that the Promised Land belongs to Abraham, his seed, and to all who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah.

We have to distinguish between the promise land (land of promise) and the promised land, which could never be fulfilled in the land of Canaan.

 

[HonestTruth]

I'm not sure of what you mean.

Can you make a biblically based distinction between the two and cite proper references from the Bible to illustrate such a distinction?

Thanks in advance.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm not sure of what you mean.

Can you make a biblically based distinction between the two and cite proper references from the Bible to illustrate such a distinction?

Thanks in advance.

The material promises given to Abraham were never fulfilled in Israel, although the promise of the messiah was. The material promises were handed down to the latter day descendants of Joseph. Reading Genesis 14 and 17 reveals a two-part promise. God did promise the descendants of Abraham the land of Canaan, but the wealth and power described as the promise was fleshed out could not have been fulfilled there.

 

[Gottservant]

Suffer the persecution as if it is happening to you.

Pray as if it is already in the past.

Believe that God will teach, as to how to avoid it in future.

With time, this results in Peace.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

"parasite" - a popular, but sad term.

 

[Rationalt]

Could be so...I'm inclined to think that even had no war occurred, Palestinians wouldn't be sharing.

I've never looked into it, but I wonder why Palestinians accept subjugation under the Ottomans...they seem so entirely disagreeable to being ruled. If I'm not mistaken, the Ottomans ruled that land for a long long time, and they certainly weren't Palestinian.

Probably two main reasons why ottomans could rule Palestinians. First ,The ottomans were ruthless and second they imposed Islam successfully.

 

[HonestTruth]

The material promises given to Abraham were never fulfilled in Israel, although the promise of the messiah was. The material promises were handed down to the latter day descendants of Joseph. Reading Genesis 14 and 17 reveals a two-part promise. God did promise the descendants of Abraham the land of Canaan, but the wealth and power described as the promise was fleshed out could not have been fulfilled there.

I think I understand you - "promise" being a reference to non-land inheritance whereas promised land being the land itself

 

[Viren]

we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

I'll go with this. Be for all people. That includes Palestinians.