How do we sort out different intepretations, and seeming contradictions?

[bekkilyn]

The thief on the cross was under the OT mosaic law, not the NT Covenant. Christ wasn't dead yet for the NT covenant to begin.

While it is technically true that the OT Mosaic covenant was still in effect, you are also here implying that the gospel isn't really good news since it would thus be much easier to get into God's kingdom before Jesus' death under the OT covenant than afterwards, and that one could easily miss out on God's kingdom for eternity simply because they had a sudden accident (perhaps even on the way to being baptized) and died before they were able to be baptized.

These sorts of things just bog down the message of the gospel.

 

[Acts2:38]

While it is technically true that the OT Mosaic covenant was still in effect

I'm glad it is agreed.

you are also here implying that the gospel isn't really good news since it would thus be much easier to get into God's kingdom before Jesus' death under the OT covenant than afterwards

You put words in my mouth or assume more than was said.

The greek word for gospel is "good news", but the bible defines what the good news is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

Death burial and resurrection.

Which is what we need to do Romans 6:1-5. Action, To receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38

Edit: Forgot to insert 1 Peter 3:20-21, as this is perfect fit here

 

[paul1149]

• Paul talks about being "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works" i

• James says "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"

• Jesus makes statements that seem to pretty clearly state there are things we have to do (works?) in order to be saved. For example, He says "unless one is both of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5), traditionally understood to refer to baptism; He says "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" (John 6:53), traditionally held to refer to the Lord's Supper. And yes, Baptists say neither one refers to either, but they still both apparently refer to something we have to do.

• Jesus also gives parables of the Judgment indicating we will be judged according to our works (Matt 25:31-46). Paul also says pretty plainly that God "will render to each one according to his works" (Roman 2:6)

Though distinct, faith and works are intimately bound. You cannot have real faith and not work in consequence of it. That would be the empty, meaningless, dead faith James warns against. And life does not allow for that, because it continually presents binary choices to us in which we must choose God or the world, and not both. James does not contradict Paul, he functions as a reality check and adds color to him.

Take a look at Gen 15.6, the verse that James says Abraham's works fulfills. It was when God gave the promise of innumerable descendants to Abraham. No work at all was possible at that point. It was simply a statement, to be believed or not. Abraham believed, and it was "accounted." But then later on, when in the advanced course of faith Abraham was willing to sacrifice even the son of the promise, that his faith was "completed" (Jas 2.22) and Gen 15.6 was "fulfilled" (Jas 2.23).

It's the same with us. We believe, we're saved. Now we live for God, no longer for ourselves. If we do not do this, our faith is not real, and is not saving. If we do do it, our faith is completed and our salvation is made secure.

I hope that helps a little.

 

[bekkilyn]

I'm glad it is agreed.



You put words in my mouth or assume more than was said.

The greek word for gospel is "good news", but the bible defines what the good news is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

Death burial and resurrection.

Which is what we need to do Romans 6:1-5. Action, To receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38

Well I gave my advice to Mary Meg and she may take it or leave it as she wishes. Outside of that, I have no interest in getting bogged down in any arguments over baptism in this thread, so I'll just leave what I've said as it stands and you of course may believe concerning baptism as you wish, and perhaps we'll both see each other in God's future kingdom all the same.

 

[zippy2006]

And yes I know that the Catholic Church has a magisterium that "fixes everything"! But is that the only answer? I know that the Church Fathers give guidance in how they, the Early Church, understood things -- and that helps a lot. But should I prioritize their interpretations? How do Protestants make it work at all?

For Catholics initial justification is a gift of God's grace apart from man's effort, but justification then becomes an ongoing, deepening process that includes both faith and works. At initial justification God plants the divine seed in our soul, but that seed sprouts and grows through a cooperative effort of God and man. Paul and James must be held together.

 

[SpiritSong]

I was not able to remember everything written in all the posts here, but I did think to ask you if you have asked the Holy Spirit to help you to understand what is written in the Bible? Also, it is good to pray for understanding every time you open the pages of any Bible.

 

[timothyu]

The world has taught us from day one to think in it's ways. Ways that serve the selfish nature of man rather than the will of God. It defends itself. It has infiltrated everything from daily life, to governance and religion.

It is not easy to forget everything you have learned, it all being tainted with ulterior motives of mankind. But scripture is clear once those preconceived notions and perceptions are set aside. You are blessed in the modern world to have scripture at your convenience rather than theologians to first indoctrinate you when the scriptures were not available to common man but only the institution.

Let Jesus talk to you, not theology, at least until you have a handle on what Jesus was saying to you about repenting/changing from the ways of mankind to the will of God. Understand the self vs selfless foundations of both before beginning to discern what man teaches.

 

[HTacianas]

Christianity is of the "heart", as opposed to being of the "head". LOVE is the byword, so Christian's, of all persons, should be able to agree to disagree.

Locate yourself in a church of your choosing, and concentrate on the "doing", rather than the "knowing". Christian's have functioned with partial understanding for millennia, and continue to do so.

1 Corinthians 13:12 ... " for now we see, as through a blurred glass"

When God determines that He needs to perfect your understanding, He will guide you into such ....

It seems God is in fact perfecting @Mary Meg and guiding her.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Except people are missing one important thing. The bible, written in Koine Greek, intends "believeth" to be a verb, not a noun.

This indicates you have to do something.

In what language is "believe" not a verb? People say, "I believe Jesus." Pronoun-verb-proper noun.

On topic, "whoever believes" means all a person needs to do is just that - believe.

 

[Jonaitis]

Faith fuels works, that's James' argument. If you don't have works, you don't have faith. It is so simple, I don't understand the problem with understanding it.

 

[GodLovesCats]

While it is technically true that the OT Mosaic covenant was still in effect, you are also here implying that the gospel isn't really good news since it would thus be much easier to get into God's kingdom before Jesus' death under the OT covenant than afterwards, and that one could easily miss out on God's kingdom for eternity simply because they had a sudden accident (perhaps even on the way to being baptized) and died before they were able to be baptized.

These sorts of things just bog down the message of the gospel.

I don't see this at all. Maybe it is just me, but I interpret the story as Jesus sending the thief into heaven in advance because he was going to die soon and come out of the grave less than three days later.

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't see this at all. Maybe it is just me, but I interpret the story as Jesus sending the thief into heaven in advance because he was going to die soon and come out of the grave less than three days later.

In my view, that would still be the result of it no matter which covenant they were all still under because I don't hold any belief that one must be baptized to be saved. If one needed to be baptized to be saved under the new covenant and did not need to be baptized to be saved under the old covenant (because per Hebrews, they were still saved by faith and not law before Jesus' resurrection), then Jesus would be adding more requirements for salvation than they had before, which wouldn't be good news in such a case. Not what I personally believe though.

I believe that God sees into each person's hearts and that believers are already judged. And with Christ as both our judge and our advocate, how are we condemned?

 

[Acts2:38]

In what language is "believe" not a verb? People say, "I believe Jesus." Pronoun-verb-proper noun.

On topic, "whoever believes" means all a person needs to do is just that - believe.

The ones that say "just believe on Him and your saved". Because thats not true. For one, they need to repent. Two, they need to confess. Three, they need to be baptized.

The Greek word for baptized
Baptizo-

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
   
   
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
   
   
3. to overwhelm
   

Acts 8:36-39 gives a good example of what happens when you inherently preach Christ to people. "look, here is water. What hinders me?" The enunch got baptized in water.

Titus 3:5 - washing of regeneration

1 Peter 3:20-21 - 8 souls saved by water; baptism now saves you - not just by washing yourself, but a good conscience toward God.

Acts 22:16 - arise WASH AWAY your sins

Acts 2:38 - repent, be baptized FOR the remission of sins and you get the Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:27 - everyone that gets baptized, puts on Christ

Romans 6:1-5 combined with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

Theres more. But do I really need more to convince someone of baptism's necessity?

Mark 16:16 - believe AND be baptized to be saved. AND joins both words together as needing to be done for salvation.

I mention all these because people just want it to be "I believe" (noun-idea-I said a word and so it must be true) and thats it. It doesnt work that way according to scripture. Hebrews 11 is full of people who were put to action and James 2 connects with it.

So again, I refer to the ones that just say "I believe" but commit nothing else to it other than words, thinking they are saved.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am sure you are familiar with grammar school when your teacher asked you to select the "main idea" of a paragraph? Something similar was done using the tools of Renaissance humanists by the Reformers. We tried to find the "main ideas" of various Scriptural texts.

You might find this book helpful to read:

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Bibl...martin+luther&qid=1556671310&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Even though Timothy Wengert is an ELCA Church historian, he's not out to convert you to Lutheran doctrines per se, just to explain a Lutheran approach to the Scriptures. So you can still read it as a Baptist, and might give you some insights into why you might want to remain with a more Protestant approach to the Bible.

 

[FireDragon76]

I feel for you but I guess I never felt that way because I don’t accept biblical inerrancy

Yes, that's another good reminder- she should really study a critical approach to the Bible as well, just to hear a "Side B". Many Catholic and Orthodox apologists ignore this aspect, they don't want to go there, but Protestant critical scholarship is generally much better and there will be plenty of reasons NOT to be Catholic or Orthodox there.

 

[-Sasha-]

Well, it seems you have enough advice on how to interpret the Scripture, so instead I guess I'll just offer what I've been taught about what role reading the Scripture, trying to follow its moral teachings, praying, fasting, going to Church, participating in the Sacraments of baptism/confession/communion, etc. plays in our salvation...in what way these things are necessary for us. It is that they all help to heal our spiritual wounds. They help to purify and soften our hearts. They help us to turn away from sins and passions. They help us reorient ourselves towards God, to remember Him, to love Him. Left to our own devices we are very far from God, our souls are sick and not open to Him. All these actions above...these "works", are like spiritual medicines for us. If we think of all our sins and distractions like buildup around our hearts, first darkening then eventually blotting out the light of God from entering in, all these actions can be like wiping away some of that soot, chipping away at it. Do they, in and of themselves, save us? I will let the more learned people debate over that question. What I believe is that they help enable us to love God by opening our hearts to Him.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Acts, are you saying people make up the idea for their own selfish reasons that they only need grace from God and faith in Jesus as our Savior to be saved, despite the fact that John 3:16 clearly says so? There is no other interpretation of the verse.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

How do Protestants make it work at all?

What protestants tend to do is read the bible plainly based on their cultural or socio-economic context. If there is a disagreement, they start a new denomination, and this application of the concept "healthy boundaries" is how they make it work.

 

[timothyu]

they start a new denomination, and this application of the concept "healthy boundaries" is how they make it work.

Kind of like deterring monopolies by man. The same reason God confounded speech in man at one time.

 

[Tutorman]

How do Protestants make it work at all?

Well I recently had to understand that I may be a protestant even though my Church and I do not protest the Catholic Church, with that out of the way I would say that my Church has a house of Bishops, a Catechism, and all that. I trust the Church since Christ founded the Church and St. Paul has said the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and the model in the NT is that the Church sorted things out (Acts 15). So I sort it out by relying on my Church not some sola silliness and my Church sorts it out in looking to the Church fathers, the Creeds, the Ecumenical Councils, and the Liturgy.