How do we Reduce Abortions?

[Mercy Medical]

Then to be quite frank, you have no business having children.

A parent needs to talk to their children about all aspects of life, even topics they are not comfortable with. Parents like yourself who are too scared to talk to their kids about sex are only contributing to the problem.

Grow up and do your job.

Ooooh, I missed this post. Applause all around!

 

[fated]

That's highly debatable. Oral contraceptives are available OTC in some countries and I'm not aware of any reliable data showing significantly higher injuries due to side effects. Plan B has been OTC in Europe for some time without detrimental effects on users. In fact, it was this data that convinced our FDA's own expert panel to recommend that Plan B be made OTC for women down to age 17.

There was a pro and con discussion of OTC contraceptives published on-line last year by the British Medical Journal. This was from the pro position:

"Making oral contraceptives available without a prescription would not eliminate the option of clinician consultation," Dr. Grossman concludes. "The prescription requirement is an out of date, paternalistic barrier to contraceptive use that is not evidence based. If governments are committed to addressing the challenge of unintended pregnancy — and the related problem of maternal mortality in the developing world, health systems must create mechanisms to allow freer access to hormonal contraception for all women at low or no cost."

And even the physician opposing OTC status admitted that safety was not an issue. Her concern was that other prescription contraceptive services are more effective. But the better doesn't justify throwing out the good.

Dr. Jarvis notes that availability of the combined oral contraceptive pill without prescription may be safe, but that those using it would not be offered a full range of contraception on every occasion, including long-acting contraceptives that do not require daily compliance and are more reliable in practice.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/585899

You are wrong.

How Safe Is the Pill? - Yahoo! News

How Safe Is the Pill?

...


Risks
Oral contraceptives have negative health effects as well. The Pill's relationship with blood-clot risk and stroke is well-documented, and that risk increases when a woman is smoker, particularly a smoker over age 35.
In addition, studies in recent years have found that birth-control pill use impairs muscle gains in young women, increases the risk of breast cancer in pre-menopausal women, and increases the risk of cervical cancer (the risk returns to normal levels after the woman has been off it for 10 years).
And the Pill may interfere with a protein that keeps testosterone unavailable for women's physiologic needs, thus causing long-term health problems, including sexual dysfunction.



... (more)

I also saw a similar article, probably a year back, in which a European country explained how it was using birth control usage statistics from its socialized health care data to help forecast what its costs were going to be for breast cancer treatment.

I didn't immediately see it in the search I did this time, but this one is enough to show you are wrong.

Plan be is a hormonal contraceptive/abortifacient only much stronger than regular birth control.

 

[jayem]

You are wrong.

How Safe Is the Pill? - Yahoo! News

How Safe Is the Pill?





I also saw a similar article, probably a year back, in which a European country explained how it was using birth control usage statistics from its socialized health care data to help forecast what its costs were going to be for breast cancer treatment.

I didn't immediately see it in the search I did this time, but this one is enough to show you are wrong.

Plan be is a hormonal contraceptive/abortifacient only much stronger than regular birth control.

I'm just saying that women are smart enough to read the package information, know what the side effects may be, and not take the pill if they're in a high risk group (over 35 or smokers), or develop problems. They're capable of making informed decisions regarding their own health and using oral contraceptives as directed. BTW, the risk of cardiovascular death (i.e., heart attack, hypertension, stroke, blood clots, etc.) due to properly used oral contraceptives is less than the risk of dying from a complication of pregnancy.

And, re Plan B, the overwhelming evidence shows that it suppresses ovulation. It's not an abortifacient. It's been used safely in Europe, even by teenagers, for years. And this has been documented by a lot of studies. Now admittedly, the FDA hasn't had a pefect track regarding regarding the presciption drugs they approve. But OTC approval requires a higher level of benefit to risk. I'm not aware of any approved OTC drug in the recent past that later had that status rescinded due to safety concerns. Now again, all drugs must be used as directed. But I think people--even young people--in general are smart enough to know that, and don't always need a chaperone.

 

[fated]

I'm just saying that women are smart enough to read the package information, know what the side effects may be, and not take the pill if they're in a high risk group (over 35 or smokers), or develop problems. They're capable of making informed decisions regarding their own health and using oral contraceptives as directed. BTW, the risk of cardiovascular death (i.e., heart attack, hypertension, stroke, blood clots, etc.) due to properly used oral contraceptives is less than the risk of dying from a complication of pregnancy.

And, re Plan B, the overwhelming evidence shows that it suppresses ovulation. It's not an abortifacient. It's been used safely in Europe, even by teenagers, for years. And this has been documented by a lot of studies. Now admittedly, the FDA hasn't had a pefect track regarding regarding the presciption drugs they approve. But OTC approval requires a higher level of benefit to risk. I'm not aware of any approved OTC drug in the recent past that later had that status rescinded due to safety concerns. Now again, all drugs must be used as directed. But I think people--even young people--in general are smart enough to know that, and don't always need a chaperone.

Plan B is an early term abortifacient more significantly than birth control is, but less so than RU486. I'm begining to doubt that you have enough expertise on this topic to have a reasonable discussion.

Actually, this is an interesting discussion, when low hormone birth control first came out, it was clear that it was not capable of stopping ovulation, but it worked pretty well, and the conclusion was that it was an abortifacient, but, their was an argument within the community, and eventually, it was decided to ignore this effect. I suppose it depends on what you actually consider abortion, but, if you don't fudge the definition, modern hormonal contraceptives are abortifiacients. The old high does ones were not, but they caused strokes and blood clots... not that the new ones don't, but just far more rarely.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

 

[rahmiyn]

I suppose it depends on what you actually consider abortion, but, if you don't fudge the definition, modern hormonal contraceptives are abortifiacients. The old high does ones were not, but they caused strokes and blood clots... not that the new ones don't, but just far more rarely.

I didn't know this. I took a low-dose contraceptive pill for years. This is awful. I wouldn't have taken it had I known. (I feel just terrible, as I realize know I might have lost my own babies without knowing it. )

 

[fated]

I didn't know this. I took a low-dose contraceptive pill for years. This is awful. I wouldn't have taken it had I known. (I feel just terrible, as I realize know I might have lost my own babies without knowing it. )

I'm sorry... The Catholic Church actually includes this in their Rachel's Vineyard program because it is such a common moral issue for people to have to work through. Rachel's Vineyard is a healing program for post-abortive men and women. It doesn't replace counseling but works with it in the spiritual healing sense.

Part of the program is, apparently to estimate the dead, name them, and resolve to pray for the repose of their soul as you would for another loved one.

I've heard a lot of Catholic doctors and feminists on EWTN indicating that these pharmaceuticals should be required to describe how they work... and thus warn women that they may cause an abortions.

 

[PsychMJC]

edit

 

[PsychMJC]

edit

 

[jayem]

Plan B is an early term abortifacient more significantly than birth control is, but less so than RU486.

We're getting off-topic here, but published studies just don't support that. This is from a 2006 JAMA paper:

"Published evidence clearly indicates that Plan B can interfere with sperm migration by altering the cervical and uterine environment, and that preovulatory use of Plan B usually suppresses the LH surge either completely or partially, which in turn either prevents ovulation or leads to the release of ova that are resistant to fertilization. Epidemiological evidence rules strongly against interruption of fallopian tube function by Plan B. Evidence that would support direct involvement of endometrial damage or luteal dysfunction in Plan B's contraceptive mechanism is either weak or lacking altogether. Both epidemiologic and clinical studies of Plan B's efficacy in relation to the timing of ovulation are inconsistent with the hypothesis that Plan B acts to prevent implantation."

Maybe we should start a new thread in the Science forum. If you have reliable data from peer-reviewed medical journals indicating that the primary action of Plan B is to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg, or act in a way that could be considered an abortion, then please post it for discussion.

 

[fated]

I haven't seen any links to verifiable information in any of your posts.. I am beginning to doubt YOU have the expertise to discuss this..

Facts About Abortion: Which Birth Control Methods Cause Abortion?

Which Birth Control Methods Cause Abortion?

Some methods have abortive mechanisms; others do not.



A list that also contains links. Also, you can see what physicians talk about as they have abortion defined (if you disagree with the definition I've used, notice is coincides).

 

[Belk]

Plan B is an early term abortifacient more significantly than birth control is, but less so than RU486. I'm begining to doubt that you have enough expertise on this topic to have a reasonable discussion.

Actually, this is an interesting discussion, when low hormone birth control first came out, it was clear that it was not capable of stopping ovulation, but it worked pretty well, and the conclusion was that it was an abortifacient, but, their was an argument within the community, and eventually, it was decided to ignore this effect. I suppose it depends on what you actually consider abortion, but, if you don't fudge the definition, modern hormonal contraceptives are abortifiacients. The old high does ones were not, but they caused strokes and blood clots... not that the new ones don't, but just far more rarely.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

So what is the difference between a fudged and non fudged definition og abortion?

 

[fated]

We're getting off-topic here, but published studies just don't support that. This is from a 2006 JAMA paper:

"Published evidence clearly indicates that Plan B can interfere with sperm migration by altering the cervical and uterine environment, and that preovulatory use of Plan B usually suppresses the LH surge either completely or partially, which in turn either prevents ovulation or leads to the release of ova that are resistant to fertilization. Epidemiological evidence rules strongly against interruption of fallopian tube function by Plan B. Evidence that would support direct involvement of endometrial damage or luteal dysfunction in Plan B's contraceptive mechanism is either weak or lacking altogether. Both epidemiologic and clinical studies of Plan B's efficacy in relation to the timing of ovulation are inconsistent with the hypothesis that Plan B acts to prevent implantation."

Maybe we should start a new thread in the Science forum. If you have reliable data from peer-reviewed medical journals indicating that the primary action of Plan B is to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg, or act in a way that could be considered an abortion, then please post it for discussion.

You might actually be correct, considering the link I've just posted, it actually appears to be controversial as to whether or not Plan B can cause an abortion... in theory... but its efficacy seems to indicate that it does. Which is probably why pharmacist for life indicate that:

Emergency Abortion drugs like Plan B are abortifacient 75 to 89% of the time.

(If you're pregnant, obviously.)

Pharmacists For Life International - pfli.org - ©MCMLXXXIV-MMIX

 

[fated]

So what is the difference between a fudged and non fudged definition og abortion?

The fudged version doesn't respect the common perspective of those concerned that life begins at conception. So, if you knew someone was asking due to a moral question it would be ethically wrong to assume that their definition was other than this.

 

[Belk]

The fudged version doesn't respect the common perspective of those concerned that life begins at conception. So, if you knew someone was asking due to a moral question it would be ethically wrong to assume that their definition was other than this.

Ah, gotcha, so for them anything that stops implantation would be an abortifacient.

 

[fated]

Ah, gotcha, so for them anything that stops implantation would be an abortifacient.

Well that's the definition pharm people use too.

 

[PassionFruit]

In order for something to be an abortion, the woman has to be pregnant. Plan B does nothing to a fertilized egg that's already attached itself to the uterus. It won't do anything to a fertilized egg. Plan B does not work if the woman is pregnant. It won't cause the egg to be rejected or anything like that.


I'm sick and tired of people spreading this misinformation. Plan B is nothing more than a higher dosage of birth control. It's like taking four birth control pills at once.

You might actually be correct, considering the link I've just posted, it actually appears to be controversial as to whether or not Plan B can cause an abortion... in theory... but its efficacy seems to indicate that it does. Which is probably why pharmacist for life indicate that:

It can't cause an abortion, because it doesn't work if the woman is pregnant.

 

[flicka]

In order for something to be an abortion, the woman has to be pregnant. Plan B does nothing to a fertilized egg that's already attached itself to the uterus. It won't do anything to a fertilized egg. Plan B does not work if the woman is pregnant. It won't cause the egg to be rejected or anything like that.


I'm sick and tired of people spreading this misinformation. Plan B is nothing more than a higher dosage of birth control. It's like taking four birth control pills at once.



It can't cause an abortion, because it doesn't work if the woman is pregnant.

Yes!

But there are some people consider a fertilized egg "pregnancy", or believe that by creating a less than hospitable environment in the uterus so the egg can't attach to is just as much an abortion as a partial birth abortion at 30 weeks or killing a newborn infant.

 

[Shane Roach]

In fairness, since people who disagree with abortion even at the earliest stages do so from the basis of the fertilization of the egg being the beginning of life, to them this is an abortifacient. This does not indicate that they make no distinction at all between fertilized egg and late term abortion. Their view is based on a fairly logical observation that an individual human being's life can easily be seen to begin in a very objective way at conception.

Referring to something that does not prevent fertilization as contraception is not accurate. There is a term for this. It is contragestion. Mixing these terms and confusing them on purpose, knowing full well that the distinction is very important to potential users of birth control, is unethical.

 

[overit]

Abortions are not a scourge, but they should be unnecessary. Some steps that can be taken to bring them down to European levels:

1. Multiple forms of contraception both widely available and provided free of charge; if women who need cost-assistance don't get pregnant, they won't need abortions.

2. Developmentally-appropriate comprehensive sex education at all ages free of discussion restrictions; the more men and women know about how sex and precreation works, the better they will be at avoiding the negatives.

3. Female empowerment; women who are in control of their minds, bodies, and labors are more likely to protect themselves and make better choices, as are men who respect those choices.

4. Socialized health care, day care, and expanded WIC services; women who have access to such advantages will feel more comfortable having children they might not have wanted due to financial strain.

That's about it... no nebulous moral prostrations required.

Exactly-but the same camp that opposed abortion also opposes the above-particularly better access to healthcare, social assistance programs, daycare provision, etc....matter of fact-I just heard a bill passed the house and on to the senate (and expected to pass) that would give 4 weeks PAID to fed employees for the birth of a child-with the hopes that the sentiment will spread outside just fed walls...and granted some Reps supported but the majority opposed-with some very strong words against it.....yet it would be things like this that would help REDUCE abortions...particularly for those in financial distress-a lot of these women might work in companies w/low pay and not very good maternity programs-not every company pays some weeks (vac, sick time accrued, etc)....so a woman already struggling knowing she will have no pay for those 4 weeks, has no money to feed an extra mouth, had little resources and not good access to healthcare will likely chose the abortion.

Granted abortion happens at every level of the social ladder-HOWEVER-it's things like the above bill, social programs, healthcare access, day care assistance, that could make someone struggling reconsider (and this does count for a large number of abortions)...yet these programs are opposed by the right who don't want to "pay taxes"...even though these things can make the difference between choosing to have the child or an abortion....
Same as opposing access to BC, sex-education, contraceptives, etc.

I always because there positions in my mind just do NOT MAKE ANY LOGICAL SENSE!! WHY WHY WHY???? baffling, mind boggling, maddening, absurd, illogical, non-sensical, it's just plain stupid!!!
Oh-but that's right-it's really NOT about abortion and the babies....bottom line-it's about morality, sex restrictions and wanting to enforce said morality.

 

[Betsy_Starlight]

Hello all, my name is Betsy. I am new to this community, and have posted a greeting in the appropriate forum if that sort of thing interests you. To summarize for the lazy, I am an aged woman with a sold foundation in Christian maturity. Also, my daughter has had an abortion, which is why this discussion interests me.

I see that we're talking about Plan B. And there are those who disagree that it is a form of abortion. Let me explain something to this group of people, and please imagine this spoken in my brusque Southern accent.

My husband and I tried for months. And it just wouldn't happen. We didn't know if it was his fault or mine, and were too frightened and cowardly to check with the appropriate authorities. It was a harsh time. We'd wake up every morning, the previous night spent in furious procreation, and were unable to look at each other. Somehow we knew we had failed, even before proof had reared its gnarled head in the form of one of those damned urine tests.

Strain, to say the least, was put on our marriage. From our shortsighted human eyeline, there was no end to the suffering. I, a woman, was frantic with the unfulfilled desire to conceive. And my husband, a man, was determined to please me while also yearning to have a tiny hand to place inside his father's weathered baseball mitt. But to us, after a fall come and gone, it didn't look like that glove was going to get to see any summer days in our lifetimes. It would stay stagnant in the shed until our deaths.

One night, after my tears had dried up, the Lord spoke to me. He rarely did this, so I dropped my emotional baggage immediately and listened up (as if I wouldn't have in any other conceivable situation).

He said, "Betsy, you will try again. And if it is My will, and if the child I have designed for you is placed into your womb, your bedside lamp will go out. And this darkness will be a blanket of comfort over you and your husband."

So we tried again. It wasn't love driving us, and it wasn't a particularly pleasant experience...our lovemaking at started to feel a chore. But we pressed on, and finished the task.

And at that moment, the moment when our two forms became one and the seed was scattered over my tired innards, my bedside lamp's lightbulb blew out. And nine months later, my son was born. And now he plays baseball in highschool with his grandfather's mitt.

My point being, my child's life was started immediately after we were finished. From the moment that light went out, his plan was laid out by God, and his form transfered from God's great eisle into my womb. No matter what state his physical being was in at the time, my son was created that night.

And if we were to have taken Plan B, God's plan would've been destroyed.

Thank you for taking the time to listen.

Betsy