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How do we make sustainable environments? Is "Evolution" always the most applicable?

AnotherAtheist

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I didn't detect a serious question. :scratch:

I did detect a very serious dodge, and continue to do so.

This is what strikes me about creationists in these discussions. In the same way that creationists refuse to learn what the actual theory of evolution is (because then they couldn't fault it I believe), creationists often refuse to actually comprehend opposing posts. And, I believe, for exactly the same reason.

Do you think that if you dodge someones question, a point, or the actual theory of evolution, that this effectively supports your viewpoint? That it functions as an argument?

EDIT:

Such a misunderstanding on your part would be consistent with your approach to evolution and discussions about evolution.

Precisely.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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You posed rhetorical questions. If you ask a specific question I'll be happy to answer it.

Do you feel that your being prepared to put your ideas up against any evolutionists (etc.) is a good thing for your side of the argument? Or does the quality of the ideas you are prepared to put up against them mean that any attempts to do so reflect very badly on creationists?
 
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Ophiolite

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Do you feel that your being prepared to put your ideas up against any evolutionists (etc.) is a good thing for your side of the argument? Or does the quality of the ideas you are prepared to put up against them mean that any attempts to do so reflect very badly on creationists?
I have commented on CF previously that I am tempted, from time to time, to register under another name and post arguments in favour of Creationism. What is typically offered by its proponents on CF is so devoid of structure, logic and evidence that it pains me to see such ineptitude. I resist the temptation on ethical grounds and from a fear that I might inadvertently convert a few fence sitters. :)
 
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AnotherAtheist

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I have commented on CF previously that I am tempted, from time to time, to register under another name and post arguments in favour of Creationism. What is typically offered by its proponents on CF is so devoid of structure, logic and evidence that it pains me to see such ineptitude. I resist the temptation on ethical grounds and from a fear that I might inadvertently convert a few fence sitters. :)

I don't know what happened to 'Dad' who claimed to be 'never defeated', but I suspect that some creationists here seem to think that you only lose an argument if you stop posting. So, by continuing to post endlessessly they never lose. The fact that their arguments are clearly so bad as to count against creationism doesn't seem to worry them.
 
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Ophiolite

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Everybody neglects the benefit of keeping open multiple ideas towards multiple hypotheses, all the time.
I am constantly trying to re-paraphrase and to enhance my conceptions. Thank you!
I find your posts interesting, but in some instances it is the same horrified interest one experiences when watching an accident about to happen that one can do nothing to prevent. I think your two comments above may explain why that is so. Your posts lack coherence and clarity, but they do contain contradiction.
This post of mine is critical, but whether you perceive that criticism as positive and negative is in your hands. My intent is to be honest and helpfull.
Yes, new niches only happen when or if they happen (contingency), and there is a sort of macro-micro mutation process (among any species that happened to survive the disappearance of the old niches) to shape fitness to it and not beyond it.
Obviously events only happen when they happen, so your first clause is redundant and - I suspect - is missing something you thought was implied.
You need to define what you mean by a macro-micro mutation process. I daresay if I reflected on it I could come up with five disparate definitions. I would have no way of knowing which, if any, were intended by you.
Th ray of sunshine is your coherent and correct statement that niches cannot (contribute) to the shaping of fitness beyond the confines (in time and space) of the niche.

The "application" of micromutation differs by kind of creature: for example moths change more easily from black to white to black again, than I expect tigers do.
That appears to be, superficially, a trivial remark. That is to say, it is an obvious and accepted statement. Did you intend something more significant by it?

Gould for one proposed what I would call macro-macro mutations prior to the Cambrian event (which is what he mainly wrote about). Thus it happened that some of the species that existed afterwards bore little resemblance to some that had existed long before. Then again Gould worked in a conventional diachronic scheme.
Point 1: You keep mentioning Gould. I've never seen you mention, for example, Mendel or the trio (de Vries, Corren, Teschmark)who re-discovered the genetic principles, or the population geneticists (Haldane, Sewall Wright, Fisher) who laid the foundation for the Modern Synthesis produced by another trio (Dobzhansky, Mayr, Simpson). Nothing on the thoughts of E.O.Wilson's sociobiology, or Stebbins' work in botany, or Tattersall's research on human evolution. The list goes on.

My point is that if you are going to be strongly influenced by any single expert in a field it is probably not a good idea to select one with a reputation as an iconoclast.

Point 2: I have no idea of what you mean by a macro-macro mutation. Surely not one of Golschmidt's "hoperful monsters"!

Point 3: As a point of information, it is plausible that some of the distinctions between Ediacaran and Cambrian fauna may be partly a consequence of taphonomy.

Point 4: I have no idea what alternative to a "conventional diachronic scheme" you think Gould could have used.

Point 5: You say he wrote mainly about the Cambrian. Of the twenty five of his books listed in Wikipedia only one, Wonderful Life, is about the Cambrian. (The Cambrian may be mentioned in passing in some of the others, but not in any major way.)
I have not located a complete list of his papers, but if you refer to your copy of The Structure of Evolutionary Theory that I understand you have, you will see 96 items listed in the References. Of these only two items relate to the Cambrian: Wonderful Life and a paper on the Burgess Shale. The two things he wrote about most were the gastropod genus Cerion, a currently extant group. No connection with the Cambrian.
Those references are only about 1/3 of his published papers, so perhaps the Cambrian ones are to be found in the other 2/3. It occured to me that the logical place to find any papers he wrote on the Cambrian would be in the Bibliography of his single book on the Cambrian. There he references eleven of his papers. None of them are on the Cambrian.
This looks very much like an error. That undermines confidence in the content of your posts.


Some anti-evolutionists only concentrate on micro-evolution, and some evolutionists deny very major contingencies.
Can you give an example of evolutionists denying "very major contingency". It would be helpful if you defined what you mean by a "very major contingency".

Many evolutionists fail to highlight the three kinds of phases in mutations.
What do you think the three kinds of phases are?

Most of the confusion around what pre-Darwinists called evolution stems from its poor presenting as well as conceiving. I like most have had to struggle extremely. Many scientists such as those attending Santa Fe Institute Proceedings XIX couldn't grasp evolution.
My knowledge of the Santa Fe Institute relates mainly to the work of Stuart Kaufmann, which I greatly admire. I have no idea, consequently, what you mean by your last sentence, or what evidence you have to support that view. Perhaps you will be more forthcoming in your response.

Note: any seeming hostility in this post is an artifact of concision and directness and should be ignored. (Hopefully not the factual content.)

Edit: Ironic that in a post critiquing Amittai's clarity I mistyped coherent and missed out a couple of other words here and there. My argument, however, remains unchanged.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Do you feel that your being prepared to put your ideas up against any evolutionists (etc.) is a good thing for your side of the argument?

If the argument gets down to cases, yes.

For example, our hyper-eutrophic lakes benefit the minority of citizens, those being offshore anglers, the Department of Natural Resources, several science departments at the university, and city government itself. Top of my head would be about 5 percent of folks. The other 95 percent can go pound sand.

My creationist (spirit led) plan would bring the clarity of the water up which would benefit the other 95 percent of folks.

I can bring creationist/spirit-led solutions to many of our problems.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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If the argument gets down to cases, yes.

For example, our hyper-eutrophic lakes benefit the minority of citizens, those being offshore anglers, the Department of Natural Resources, several science departments at the university, and city government itself. Top of my head would be about 5 percent of folks. The other 95 percent can go pound sand.

My creationist (spirit led) plan would bring the clarity of the water up which would benefit the other 95 percent of folks.

I can bring creationist/spirit-led solutions to many of our problems.

And this proves my point. This is utterly bizarre. You claim that you can bring 'creatiionist/spirit-led solutions' (AKA 'magic') for many of our problems.

Reading what you write above simply makes me concerned for your mental health.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And this proves my point. This is utterly bizarre. You claim that you can bring 'creatiionist/spirit-led solutions' (AKA 'magic') for many of our problems.

Reading what you write above simply makes me concerned for your mental health.

Au contraire. Belief in God and having God's Holy Spirit indwelling leads to a sound mind and good judgment. No matter how smart one is, without God one doesn't have the sound mind that one could have.

My spirit-led plan for the lakes isn't magic, just vigorously harvesting the lake weeds and removing carp; something that hasn't yet occurred to those in authority.

And once the water is cleaner I would restore the piers and diving boards to the city beaches, which were taken away because too few girls were using the diving board (the piers are 'waypoints' on the way to the diving boards). With so many girls and women's sports now established it's time to restore the fun to our beaches. Of course we will have to elect a mayor who has good judgment to accomplish this.
 
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Gottservant

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Here's the part where your 'argument', if you can call it that, immediately falls apart.
Evolution isn't any of those things, because it's never been any of those things. Evolution is merely the change in alleles in the genetics of a population in response to adaptation.

You do not understand what evolution is. Please. Stop spouting nonsense like this this and actually learn about evolution. It's not that hard. A high school course would work.

Yes, but what allele changes when you say "alleles"? Is it something that is building up, or slowing down?

How am I supposed to be encouraged, comparing your evolution to mine? Or you can't compare them, because "nothing"?
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Au contraire. Belief in God and having God's Holy Spirit indwelling leads to a sound mind and good judgment. No matter how smart one is, without God one doesn't have the sound mind that one could have.

My spirit-led plan for the lakes isn't magic, just vigorously harvesting the lake weeds and removing carp; something that hasn't yet occurred to those in authority.

Why would you present this plan to 'evolutioniists' (etc.)? And what on earth has this got to do with 'spirits' . This remains a bizarre thing to say, and why would 'evolutionists' be impressed by it?

And once the water is cleaner I would restore the piers and diving boards to the city beaches, which were taken away because too few girls were using the diving board (the piers are 'waypoints' on the way to the diving boards). With so many girls and women's sports now established it's time to restore the fun to our beaches. Of course we will have to elect a mayor who has good judgment to accomplish this.

Do you have anything you'd present to evolutionists whcih supports your view of evolution and actually has something to do with it. Please don't reply with a 'spirit-led' recipe for rough puff pastry which is 'spirit led' because you chill the ingredients first.

Because, returning to the sub-topic of our discussion, what you write above will just get a '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' from 'evolutionists' and certainly not impress them in any way. That's my point: arguments from creationists which are so bad that they discredit the creationist rather than support evolution.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Yes, but what allele changes when you say "alleles"? Is it something that is building up, or slowing down?

How am I supposed to be encouraged, comparing your evolution to mine? Or you can't compare them, because "nothing"?

Allele changes as in changes in alleles.
Seriously, I am going to repeat this every single time you make an insipid claim about evolution:
You do not understand what evolution is. Please. Stop spouting nonsense like this this and actually learn about evolution. It's not that hard. A high school course would work.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Why would you present this plan to 'evolutioniists' (etc.)? And what on earth has this got to do with 'spirits' . This remains a bizarre thing to say, and why would 'evolutionists' be impressed by it?



Do you have anything you'd present to evolutionists whcih supports your view of evolution and actually has something to do with it. Please don't reply with a 'spirit-led' recipe for rough puff pastry which is 'spirit led' because you chill the ingredients first.

Because, returning to the sub-topic of our discussion, what you write above will just get a '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' from 'evolutionists' and certainly not impress them in any way. That's my point: arguments from creationists which are so bad that they discredit the creationist rather than support evolution.

Spirit-led solutions aim at providing the greatest good for the greatest number of people, when applied to problems of that nature.

My criticizm isn't aimed at evolutionists per se in this example, but at scientists (note that I mentioned evolutionists, atheists, and scientists). It is the scientists (who are also evolutionists of course) that are the main culprits in our polluted lakes problem as they are providing bad advice to the authorities.
 
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Ophiolite

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Spirit-led solutions aim at providing the greatest good for the greatest number of people, when applied to problems of that nature.

My criticizm isn't aimed at evolutionists per se in this example, but at scientists (note that I mentioned evolutionists, atheists, and scientists). It is the scientists (who are also evolutionists of course) that are the main culprits in our polluted lakes problem as they are providing bad advice to the authorities.
Based on your posts on this theme so far I can only conclude that a "spirit-led solution" is one inspired by an over indulgence in bourbon.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Based on your posts on this theme so far I can only conclude that a "spirit-led solution" is one inspired by an over indulgence in bourbon.

I guess you'd have to be there. ;)
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Spirit-led solutions aim at providing the greatest good for the greatest number of people, when applied to problems of that nature.

My criticizm isn't aimed at evolutionists per se in this example, but at scientists (note that I mentioned evolutionists, atheists, and scientists). It is the scientists (who are also evolutionists of course) that are the main culprits in our polluted lakes problem as they are providing bad advice to the authorities.

OK, I return to my question.

Do you have anything that you could take to evolutionists that wouldn't make them think that you have no idea what you are talking about?

Can you give me your best case, evidence, and/or argument?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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OK, I return to my question.

Do you have anything that you could take to evolutionists that wouldn't make them think that you have no idea what you are talking about?

Can you give me your best case, evidence, and/or argument?

I don't go with hat-in-hand to evolutionists.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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AnotherAtheist

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I don't go with hat-in-hand to evolutionists.

Thank you for confirming my previous statement that all you have are bizarre irrelevances.

This is precisely my point. Creationists are so poor at arguing their case that they don't know how to even construct an argument.

Wasn't another one of the people here who attempts to discuss evolution asking what an allele is?

No, it's the former.

Previously he was posturing by saying that he would be prepared to speak to any evolutionist. I was trying to see if this was an empty claim because he actually had nothing worthwhile to say to them. I think the answer is now very clear that he does not.

Or on what grounds do I reject evolution.

You don't have enough understanding of evolution to make any meaningful statement pro or con.
 
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