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Discussion in 'LCMS / WELS / ELS / LCC' started by Hope1960, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Active Member

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    How do we know that the Bible is Gods word when it was written by men and compiled by men?
     
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  2. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Witness

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    2 Peter 1:19. Moreover, we possess the prophetic word as an altogether reliable thing. You do well if you pay attention to this as you would to a light shining in a murky place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
     
  3. Lucke

    Lucke New Member

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    Is impossible to convince you, you should believe by faith. There are people that start to study other religions and they confuce themself. The book of revelation is a book where all the prophecies that are written are been fulfill in this time. Have faith my brother and God bless your life.
     
  4. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞Steadfast Lutheran, Messianic leaning ✡ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    It can certainly be tough. However, starting with the Jewish scriptures we can see that the whole nation was there and saw what happened - not just one man or two as in some other religions. Following from there we can read the prophets, and again it attests to the historicity and we can see that the prophesies did come true. Following that we can see that Jesus/Yeshua was/is the fulfillment of many of the prophesies about the Messiah. It literally all fits together like no other religion. The books span millennia, but they all fit together. The books that are compiled work together and can be used to expound on each other. Different Christian faith traditions may leave out some books that the others have, but the ones left out were done so generally for reasons that are outside of the theology of the content. Books that "did not make the cut" were done so for good reasons, generally they don't have a reasonably verifiable author, were late writings, or the theology was way outside of the Tradition to be viable. Lastly, we trust that the Holy Spirit leads the church - and has led the faith from the time of Abraham.
     
  5. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence Stand with Jesus. He is with you in the whirlwind. Supporter

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    God will preserve His word. There is a reason The Holy Bible is known as the word of God.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  6. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Timely question. Last week's On Line Bible Study at my Parish addressed this very question. Pastor has recorded the audio and has posted them. Have a listen to lesson 5, I think you will find this both helpful, informative, and even a bit surprising. :)
    upload_2020-6-6_6-16-34.png
    Here is the link: https://anchor.fm/revfenn/episodes/Christianity-Unpacked---Topic-5-Holy-Scripture-eevgn0 upload_2020-6-6_6-16-34.png
     
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  7. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Active Member

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    You have to sign up to hear it, I think. In a nutshell, what did he say?
     
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  8. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Well, it does not quite fit in a nut-shell; not even close. LOL If you have to sign up, and you don't want to, I can send you a PDF file of the lesson material; but you will miss the discussion and the questions and answers that go along with it.
     
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  9. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Jesus clearly communicated that the OT Scriptures were the very words of God, and Jesus is God. So here we have God in flesh saying His own words are true. I don't think we can get any stronger evidence than a literal and tangible God affirming Scriptures as true and truly His own Word. This is what the apostles believed and taught, and consequently the early Church, right up to this day.

    And we can understand the NT to be the true words of God also, because Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture, but more importantly, because of the entire context and their witness and ministry effected by the Holy Spirit. In other words, it's not just one or two things that makes the Bible read as God's Word, it's everything about it!

    I think to argue that the Bible is not the very word of God, like some liberal scholars do, is quite difficult, for by taking that position you must by necessity disregard a lot of internal evidence - what Scriptures say about itself as well as historical facts. But there is yet another component to it, and that is the Holy Spirit. For He, through the spoken or read Word convicts us of our sin and conveys the Gospel, so that we not only have to believe in Scriptures intellectually, but spiritually through faith, which is the gift of the Holy Spirit by God's grace.

    So, (1) Jesus who is God says the Bible is His true Word, (2) the apostles, inspired by the Holy Spirit reaffirms the same, and (3) the context and history demands it.
     
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  10. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Active Member

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    But what about the people who put the Bible together? Couldn’t there be more Scripture that was God breathed but didn’t make the cut?
     
  11. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞Steadfast Lutheran, Messianic leaning ✡ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Sure, but at some point we have to trust that the Holy Spirit led them to include the correct books. There are books that did not make the cut but are spiritually edifying to read. Think the Epistles of Clement, Maccabees 1&2, etc. They are not in the Hebrew or Protestant Christian scriptures, but they are worthwhile documents. If they did not "make the cut" there are lots of reasons, but so long as they agree with what is scripture they are worthwhile to read, even Martin Luther taught that the books of the "Apocrypha" were good to read when remembering that.
     
  12. JM

    JM Reformed Catholic Supporter

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    Please consider this a fellowship post as I only mean to encourage, not to teach or argue.

    In Jeremiah 31 we see that the covenant people of God will know God, that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth (John 16:13) and believers hear Christ's voice (John 10:27-28). Those who have been called according to His purpose will know Him and that means knowing His word, be able to discern his voice in the scriptures and be lead to all truth (eventually, death included). Trust the voice of God speaking to you in scripture, listen to your pastor as he opens the word for you and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  13. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Well, that's a very complex topic and it's certainly been a controversy in the Church. I don't want to give overly shallow reasons, but I think we can perhaps consider them in two ways: From above and from below. What I mean is this: From below, purely in a historical, non-theological and earthly sense, we have to make a distinction between that which bears apostolic authority and that which does not. (I don't mean apostolicity in a broad sense, because the Church is apostolic even in our day - I mean apostolic in a narrow sense - the actual witnesses of Jesus Christ or those in close proximity that bears their authority, such as Luke or Mark who conveyed apostolic authority)

    There are several ways to qualify what is apostolic and what is not. The historical and scientifical aspect is one, and there's the theological - that we can recognise that the writings have the historical background of being apostolic in that they were accepted as such by the early Church, and that they are scientifically consistent (similar style of writing for example), but also that the same thought, namely God's Law and Gospel, is consistent throughout. All of these things together lay a good foundation for what we can understand to be truly apostolic and what isn't.

    To make all of this a bit clearer, there are 4 Gospel accounts in the NT, but we know that there were many more. Well, how can we be sure that it's only 4, or that those 4 are correct? We know this because all of the other ones were rejected because of their questionable origin and inconsistent or false theology.

    Then there's the other reason, which is from above. By this I mean God's own witness through the Holy Spirit. Just as the OT was compiled into one complete corpus and preserved that way up until Jesus' day (which is why we as Lutherans exclude the Apocrypha as God's Word proper, though we still value them), we also trust in the Holy Spirit's guidance regarding the NT. So, even though some in the early Church questioned certain NT texts and favoured other texts, and again how some NT came into question at the Reformation, we can be confident in the Church's conclusion of sticking to the body of text that we have now. Now, it gets more complicated when we bear in mind some Oriental and Orthodox bodies, but there are historical reasons for why they have an expanded canon.

    So, in short, we know that the Bible is complete from a historical and spiritual point of view. There are some other writings referred to in the NT. Paul refers to an epistle to the Laodiceans, for example. There are some different theories on it, and we can speculate, but I think it's extremely unlikely that this would ever be discovered as it's never really been known or used in the Church (though there are some different ideas about this as well). Even the OT refers to earlier lost writings. Again, I don't think we will ever find them, so the Bible remains locked. And I think most orthodox Christians believe that this is the will and work of the Holy Spirit. That's at least the Lutheran position.
     
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I'm speaking as a guest, as I'm not LCMS/WELS/etc.

    But I try to remember a couple things Luther said, Luther compared the Scriptures to the manger in which laid the Christ Child; and likewise said that IIRC, "We believe the Scriptures for the sake of Christ, we do not believe in Christ for the sake of the Scriptures.". St. Augustine of Hippo is quoted as saying that "There is but one Utterance in all of Scripture", that one Utterance is Jesus Christ, the very Word of God Himself.

    We must remember that the Scriptures are Christ-bearing. The point of the Bible is Jesus Christ. The Bible isn't for itself, it's for us to point us to Jesus. We call the two parts of the Bible the Old and New Testaments, the Latin testamentum refers to bearing witness, to testify: These are those books which testify, bear witness to, Jesus Christ. They contain and convey the story of redemption, the history and unfolding drama of our salvation and the salvation of the whole world that centers upon the coming of our Lord Jesus. The Scriptures are a finger pointing always to Christ.

    I believe this is the most important way that they are God's word, as the proclaim and lead us to the very Word Himself who became flesh, and show us both God's Law and the holy and precious Gospel. That through these texts we are confronted with the heavy truth that we are sinners, and more importantly, that God saves sinners--and this He has done by sending Jesus Christ, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and dead, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead--and His kingdom is everlasting.

    Is the Canon "complete"? Well, honestly, there has always been some dispute over the canonical status of certain books. So on some level, we don't have all the answers, but we can trust that what we read is indeed, the true and Christ-bearing word of God. I don't think modern categorical statements about inerrancy are the most helpful, neither should it be distressing that throughout the history of the Church there has been debate over whether certain stories and portions of text are literally-historical or not. What really matters is that we can trust in the goodness of God who, through Jesus, has assured us of His promises, and we can read those promises, hear those promises in the Scriptures, and thus be comforted. Thus here God indeed proclaims these things to us--that we might be nourished and sustained in our faith, believe upon the Son of God, and rest in the comfort of His grace and promises to us that are ours in Christ.

    Whether or not Noah literally built a giant boat to escape a world-spanning flood is infinitely insignificant compared to the fact that through this story we see how man's sin is destructive, and more importantly, the world can't be fixed by destroying it and starting over--instead the healing of the world comes instead through a man by the name of Abraham to whom God makes a solemn promise, that promise is Jesus Christ.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  15. JM

    JM Reformed Catholic Supporter

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    This is signed CryptoLutheran but posted by ViaCrucis.
     
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Yeah, that's kind of my thing. When I first signed onto Christian Forums back in 2010, I chose the name CryptoLutheran--at the time I was not yet formally a Lutheran, but felt more like a "secret Lutheran". I always signed my posts off with my name.

    About a year afterward or so, I lost access to my email and couldn't sign back on here. So I made this account, which I've used ever since, choosing ViaCrucis as my name. But I didn't want to make it seem like I was a sockpuppet or trying to fool anyone, so I made it clear that it was me, CryptoLutheran by continuing to sign my posts off the way I had already been doing.

    And, I just never broke the habit of doing so. I tried a few times, but it's so habitual for me at this point that sometimes I have accidentally signed off two or three times when reviewing and editing my posts before posting.

    At this point I'll answer to both ViaCrucis or CryptoLutheran, either is fine.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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