How do we know . . . .

[Philothei]

HOW DO WE KNOW ....

who is the SS ???

List of Denominations and Sects:​

1- LUTHERANS: Martin Luther, Germany, 1517.
2- ANABAPTISTS, (after Zwingli), 1519.
- Brethren in Christ, German Switzerland.
- Hutterine Brethren.
- Mennonites, to Pennsylvania, in 1653.
- German Baptists, Dunkards, to USA, 1723.
- German Moravians, who became the "United Brethren Church", in 1735.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, in England and Holland, came to America as the Pilgrim fathers on the "Mayflower" (repudiated the title of Anabaptists, as they did the "Baptists").
- The Amish, to Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa.
- The Baptists in USA (repudiated the title).
3- CHURCH OF ENGLAND, Henry VIII, 1534.
- Episcopalians, England and America.
- Methodists (split with the Ch. of England).
- Evangelicalism, England and America.
4- CALVINISTS, after Calvin, 1536. Switzerland
- Presbyterians, Scotland and America.
- Dutch Reformed Church, Holland.
- Huguenots, France.
- Puritans, England and America.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, with many Calvinist tenets.
5- PIETISTS, after Fox, 1654.
- Quakers, "Society of Friends", England, 1654
- Shakers, "Union Society", England, 1741.
- Moravians, Germany, 1727.
- Pentecostals, USA, 1900
- Charismatics, USA, 1900.
- Fundamentalists, USA, 1900.
6- MILLENNIALISM, after Miller, 1818.
- Seventh-day Adventists, USA, 1818.
- Seventh-day Baptists.
- Worldwide Church of God, USA, 1934.
- Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, 1809
7- CHRISTIANS WITHOUT CHRIST:
With or without Millennialism... For them, Jesus Christ is not God:
- Mormons, USA, 1829.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, USA, 1852.
- Christian Science, USA, 1879.
- Moonies, Korea and USA, 1936.
- Scientology, USA, 1954.
- Children of God, USA, 1969.
- Unitarian- Universalist, England, 1774,
- Transcendentalism (Kant), USA, 1800.
- Unity School of Christianity, USA, 1889.
- Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong).
- Spiritualism, USA
- The Way International, USA, 1957.
- Church Universal and Triumphant, 1958.
- The Holy Order of MANS, USA.
And others:
- Church of the Living Word, USA.
- Crossroads Church, England, USA.
- United Christian... Rev. Ike, USA
- Penitents, USA.
- Snake Handlers, 1909, USA.
- Homosexual Churches, 1868, USA.
- Branch Davidians. "Waco", USA.
- People's Temple. "Guayana", USA
- The Jamalians, USA, 1975.
- Gnosticism.

FOUNDERS AND WORLD "MEMBERSHIP"
1457- United Brethren (Moravians): Huss.
1517- Lutherans: Martin Luther- 75 million.
1519- Anabaptists: Grebel (after Ulrich Zwingli).
1534- Church of England: Henry VIII- 70 m.
1536- Calvinism: John Calvin-
1560- Presbyterians: J. Knox (Calvin)- 35 m.
1570- Puritans: T. Cartwright.
1582- Congregationalism: R. Brown.
1605- Baptists: John Smith (Zwingli)- 45 million
1620- Episcopalians: S. Seabury (Henry VIII)- 3m
1654- Quakers: Fox- 0.2 million.
1741- Shakers: Ann Lee- 0.03 million.
1744- Methodists: J and C. Wesley- 29 million.
1774- Unitarians: T. Lindsay.
1800- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)- 2m.
1830- Mormons: Joseph Smith- 7 million.
1846- Adventists: W. Miller- 5 million.
1852- Jehovah's Witnesses: C.Russel- 3 million.
1865- Salvation Army: M. Jones- 1 million.
1879- Christian Science: Mary Baker- 1 million.
1900- Pentecostals: C.F. Parham- 58 million.
1934- Worldwide Ch. of God: Armstrong- .05.
1954- Moonies: Sun M. Moon- 2 million.
1957- United Church of Christ- 2 million.
1969- Children of God: David "Mo" Berg- .008.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The Holy Scriptures were never meant to be used by anyone outside The Church.

Twist it any way you want.

Forgive me...

IOW, since you believe THE CHURCH is YOUR CHURCH... scripture was never meant to be used by anyone other than "us good guys." so you can in your mind, invalidate the thoughts and arguments of anyone who doesn't adhere to the Orthodox party line.

love that false humility.

You cannot dismiss an argument saying it
"it is history.." it is not, my reply was to your post

which is funny. That is the standard of the EO. "hey, this is history, live with it." Double standard much?

Show me where the NT scripture is given any authority.

Forgive me...

isEVERYONE who disagrees with Sola Scriptura, ignorant of it? It's quite trying. this stupid line gets trotted out on a daily basis.

Converted to what? Gnostics?

Forgive me....

I'm sorry, but I really can't take this horrific argument from you again without saying something. It is utmost arrogance to you to speak like this. You call everyone other than those who toady up to your chosen Church, Gnostic. IOW, hey, if you don't kiss our blarney stone, you're heretics.

I reject this as hopelessly arrogant, and exactly like the Pharisees that Jesus gave the gears too.

"Oh, God, I thank you that I'm not like these other sinners!"

you should be ashamed of that statement.

 

[Asinner]

Thread deteriorating . . .

 

[Uphill Battle]

Thread deteriorating . . .

tends to happen when somebody pulls the "everyone else is a heretic but me" crap.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

prove it....

Read Luther's assertions about making the Bible available in German to the common man . . . it is common knowledge.

In 1534, Luther completed one of the most significant documents of the Reformation, his translation of the Bible in the vernacular. The center of Luther’s achievement and influence were clearly religious as the ordinary layman could now read the word of God for himself . . . Luther’s goal was to equip every Christian in Germany with the ability to hear “the Word.” Thus, by 1534 he completed his translation of the old and new testaments from Latin into the vernacular, one of the most meaningful acts of the Reformation.

From . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible

which is greatly substantiated in the footnotes.

Proof positive . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I am curious -- what is the date of the copies from which the Masoretic text was compiled ? I did find the following, which suggests that - with the addition of vowels - 'interpretation' was needed to determine meaning. Also, given passages such as the one I mentioned from "Wisdom of Solomon", do you think its possible the Masoretes perhaps had an "agenda" in their interpretation and selection of passages and books ?




from here:
http://www.prophecystudy.com/religions/christianity/holy_bible.htm

It is possible that they had an agenda . . . but with the Jewish sentiment towards the Holy writ . . . I don't think that they would have changed anything . . . the Scriptures were one of the Hallmarks that distinguished them from the Gentiles without the "Law and the Prophets."

Compilation is about 1000 AD . . . interestingly enough though . . . the Is text of the DSS is almost verbatim . . . attesting to the meticulous translation strategy of the Jews for over 1000 years.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So... Luther became infallable... instead... and SS falls into its own fallacy... of gnosticism an old heresy...indeed

What? I have been impressed with you for the most part sister . . . but it seems you are foisting something on me I never asserted . . . so either you have misunderstood me or you are grasping at straws.

Luther is not inerrant nor inspired in the same way as the Scriptural authors . . . never asserted otherwise.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

And, I've told them before, my sister alone in a dark jail cell and a bible beckoning her, inspired her to seek answers and find God--and she has never looked back . . .

Amen. Ortho USA . . . would you be so arrogant as to assert that her sister is not a Christian?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Only from your point of view.

I'm tired of arguing with you.

Forgive me...

Ok sure . . . play the relativism card . . . nice way to duck out.

Facts are facts . . . reject them at your own peril.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

HOW DO WE KNOW ....

who is the SS ???

List of Denominations and Sects:​

1- LUTHERANS: Martin Luther, Germany, 1517.
2- ANABAPTISTS, (after Zwingli), 1519.
- Brethren in Christ, German Switzerland.
- Hutterine Brethren.
- Mennonites, to Pennsylvania, in 1653.
- German Baptists, Dunkards, to USA, 1723.
- German Moravians, who became the "United Brethren Church", in 1735.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, in England and Holland, came to America as the Pilgrim fathers on the "Mayflower" (repudiated the title of Anabaptists, as they did the "Baptists").
- The Amish, to Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa.
- The Baptists in USA (repudiated the title).
3- CHURCH OF ENGLAND, Henry VIII, 1534.
- Episcopalians, England and America.
- Methodists (split with the Ch. of England).
- Evangelicalism, England and America.
4- CALVINISTS, after Calvin, 1536. Switzerland
- Presbyterians, Scotland and America.
- Dutch Reformed Church, Holland.
- Huguenots, France.
- Puritans, England and America.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, with many Calvinist tenets.
5- PIETISTS, after Fox, 1654.
- Quakers, "Society of Friends", England, 1654
- Shakers, "Union Society", England, 1741.
- Moravians, Germany, 1727.
- Pentecostals, USA, 1900
- Charismatics, USA, 1900.
- Fundamentalists, USA, 1900.
6- MILLENNIALISM, after Miller, 1818.
- Seventh-day Adventists, USA, 1818.
- Seventh-day Baptists.
- Worldwide Church of God, USA, 1934.
- Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, 1809
7- CHRISTIANS WITHOUT CHRIST:
With or without Millennialism... For them, Jesus Christ is not God:
- Mormons, USA, 1829.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, USA, 1852.
- Christian Science, USA, 1879.
- Moonies, Korea and USA, 1936.
- Scientology, USA, 1954.
- Children of God, USA, 1969.
- Unitarian- Universalist, England, 1774,
- Transcendentalism (Kant), USA, 1800.
- Unity School of Christianity, USA, 1889.
- Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong).
- Spiritualism, USA
- The Way International, USA, 1957.
- Church Universal and Triumphant, 1958.
- The Holy Order of MANS, USA.
And others:
- Church of the Living Word, USA.
- Crossroads Church, England, USA.
- United Christian... Rev. Ike, USA
- Penitents, USA.
- Snake Handlers, 1909, USA.
- Homosexual Churches, 1868, USA.
- Branch Davidians. "Waco", USA.
- People's Temple. "Guayana", USA
- The Jamalians, USA, 1975.
- Gnosticism.

FOUNDERS AND WORLD "MEMBERSHIP"
1457- United Brethren (Moravians): Huss.
1517- Lutherans: Martin Luther- 75 million.
1519- Anabaptists: Grebel (after Ulrich Zwingli).
1534- Church of England: Henry VIII- 70 m.
1536- Calvinism: John Calvin-
1560- Presbyterians: J. Knox (Calvin)- 35 m.
1570- Puritans: T. Cartwright.
1582- Congregationalism: R. Brown.
1605- Baptists: John Smith (Zwingli)- 45 million
1620- Episcopalians: S. Seabury (Henry VIII)- 3m
1654- Quakers: Fox- 0.2 million.
1741- Shakers: Ann Lee- 0.03 million.
1744- Methodists: J and C. Wesley- 29 million.
1774- Unitarians: T. Lindsay.
1800- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)- 2m.
1830- Mormons: Joseph Smith- 7 million.
1846- Adventists: W. Miller- 5 million.
1852- Jehovah's Witnesses: C.Russel- 3 million.
1865- Salvation Army: M. Jones- 1 million.
1879- Christian Science: Mary Baker- 1 million.
1900- Pentecostals: C.F. Parham- 58 million.
1934- Worldwide Ch. of God: Armstrong- .05.
1954- Moonies: Sun M. Moon- 2 million.
1957- United Church of Christ- 2 million.
1969- Children of God: David "Mo" Berg- .008.

O my gudness . . . that is such a post of nonsense . . . only about 1/2 of that is even accurate.

And the fact that they include cults in the mix is proof of sheer bias.

. . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So... Luther became infallable... instead... and SS falls into its own fallacy... of gnosticism an old heresy...indeed

Oh yeah . . . BTW nothing in this thread even resembles the age old heresy of gnosticism . . . you guys are showing your lack of study by asserting these things.

Try the Nag Hammadi . . .

 

[Thekla]

Read Luther's assertions about making the Bible available in German to the common man . . . it is common knowledge.

Read St. John Chrysostom 4th c) on how we should read the Bible every day, or St. Nikodemos (19th c) that families who could not afford a Bible should fast in order to do so.

Or the fact that the Slavic and Aleut alphabets were created so that people could have the Bible in their own language ...

see, St. Cyril and St. Methodius (9th c, Slavic alphabet) St. Innocent (Aleut)

 

[Thekla]

It is possible that they had an agenda . . . but with the Jewish sentiment towards the Holy writ . . . I don't think that they would have changed anything . . . the Scriptures were one of the Hallmarks that distinguished them from the Gentiles without the "Law and the Prophets."

Compilation is about 1000 AD . . . interestingly enough though . . . the Is text of the DSS is almost verbatim . . . attesting to the meticulous translation strategy of the Jews for over 1000 years.

but they gave up stone altars because the pagans used them (and possibly Purim eggs because of Christian Easter eggs), so to protect their integrity from this new "Christian sect", why not alter the Bibles ...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I guess there are no heretics?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am implying that Gnostics read the Bible too... choose any heresy you like. They all use the bible to back their claim.

Forgive me...

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Read St. John Chrysostom 4th c) on how we should read the Bible every day, or St. Nikodemos (19th c) that families who could not afford a Bible should fast in order to do so.

Or the fact that the Slavic and Aleut alphabets were created so that people could have the Bible in their own language ...

see, St. Cyril and St. Methodius (9th c, Slavic alphabet) St. Innocent (Aleut)

I never asserted that others did not do such things . . . I was simply responding to the fallacious strawman arguement that SS asserts that only the elitist can interpret the Bible. One of the main premises of the Reformation was that the common man SHOULD have the Bible . . . but the RCC had a lock down based on their concepts of the priest. They held that the priest needed to interpret to the masses what the Scripture held.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Elitest? That your word for Bishops?

Forgive me...

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

but they gave up stone altars because the pagans used them (and possibly Purim eggs because of Christian Easter eggs), so to protect their integrity from this new "Christian sect", why not alter the Bibles ...

Because the OT was the very words of God . . . and to do so was anthema . . . as I said . . . the consistency between the DSS and the Maso proves this . . . being that the DSS predate the Christian canon . . . ergo bias based on this "Christian sect" does not influence the DSS MSS . . . and if the DSS MSS agree with the Maso . . . then the Maso was not tampered with in the 1000 year interim.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I guess there are no heretics?

Forgive me...

Sure there are . . . why would there not be . . .

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Do you think all of the Ancient Churches fell into heresy?

Forgive me...