How do we know . . . .

[GenemZ]

BTW ~ I never spoke of myself being of any authority. I speak of The Church's authority.

Imagine a policeman from another country? Pulls you over, and issues you a ticket from his land?

Would you pay it?

Neither does your denomination hold any authority over what I believe.

It either has to agree with the Bible, or you have no say over my thinking.

I ask you.. Can't you think for yourself? Or, do you not get taught the Bible in depth to think with? After all, that's what a good church is supposed to do. Teach the Word of God line upon line. Its not simply to dictate what you are to think. But, the church is intended to give us what is needed (fresh Bible teaching) so that the Holy Spirit can guide us into what we are to think with.

So? I just rip up that ticket. Its only a piece of paper. Even though, the policeman says that his police precinct is the oldest one in the world. So what? He's not in my jurisdiction of a universal Biblical justification.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I dont think so.
And here is why...
How come Christ did not tell the Jewish ppl to get out the scrolls to obey the word?
No He didnt, but He did in fact tell them to obey the chair of Moses. Didnt He?

So now tell me where the actual authority laid.

I am all ears.
Tell me how I assumed and correct me.

your assertions assume that Mary was literate.

your assertions assume that Mary was indeed given charge over the scriptural training. (If you're going to make the assertion that it was neccessarily the Mother who was given this charge, you're going to have to back it up.)
your assertions assume that Christ had to learn the scripture to KNOW the scripture.

your assertions assume much.

 

[Uphill Battle]

But I'm not going to... I'm tired of being beaten up. Perhaps some of you have forgotten that I am a human too.

BTW ~ I never spoke of myself being of any authority. I speak of The Church's authority.

Forgive me...

beaten up? where?

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah, it was a "guy thing", Hebrews bein' heavily paternalistic,... but He indeed need to learn.
He had to learn not in the sense that He'd abandoned His divinity to the point that He couldn't access it, but He did not resort to it for convenience and did not indulge it to make His sojuorn in the flesh easier than ours.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yeah, it was a "guy thing", Hebrews bein' heavily paternalistic,... but He indeed need to learn.
He had to learn not in the sense that He'd abandoned His divinity to the point that He couldn't access it, but He did not resort to it for convenience and did not indulge it to make His sojuorn in the flesh easier than ours.

including the scriptures you think?

I find that odd, myself.

 

[Rick Otto]

But I'm not going to... I'm tired of being beaten up. Perhaps some of you have forgotten that I am a human too.

BTW ~ I never spoke of myself being of any authority. I speak of The Church's authority.

Forgive me...

Buck Up, Lad.
You might not be helping with the landscaping anymore, but you can still haul groceries!
And stop underepresenting your individual authority. You're On The Team. You have the jersey.
Get the ball, take a shot.

Go sit down by the cheerleaders until you feel better.

 

[lionroar0]

Nice job Orthodoxy .... very interesting. Things you do not find out about in everyday SS....hmmm

and here I thought it was common knowledge that the NT quoted mostly form the LXX.



Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

including the scriptures you think?

I find that odd, myself.

It's what every Jewish boy had to do (more or less).
It would've been attention-getting if He was born with full skills. It was partof His thing to suffer & experience a 'normal' life as a Jew, except His responses modeled human perfection.

 

[GenemZ]

your assertions assume that Mary was literate.

your assertions assume that Mary was indeed given charge over the scriptural training. (If you're going to make the assertion that it was neccessarily the Mother who was given this charge, you're going to have to back it up.)
your assertions assume that Christ had to learn the scripture to KNOW the scripture.

your assertions assume much.

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 (New American Standard Bible)
"You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

"You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.

"You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates,

so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth."
​

And?

Who was with the children all day to instruct them? The fathers who worked? Or? Their mothers?

Proverbs 1:7-8 (New American Standard Bible)
"Hear, my son, your father's instruction
And do not forsake your mother's teaching;

Indeed, they are a graceful wreath to your head
And ornaments about your neck."

​

Does that say anything to you?

Mary knew Scriptures, and Jesus was also taught to read in the synagogue as a boy. Boys in Israel as a rule were taught to read. Even, David, who was a lowly shepherd boy, could read and write.

Jesus as a boy had to be able to read from the Torah in order to be bar mitzvah'd. Its Jewish tradition.



Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*OrthodoxyUSA unsubscribes*

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

That's not the issue here. The issue being an answer to a question about what I/Orthodox believe is essential that's not in the Bible.

That's funny, because it's my OP, and I'm pretty sure that that's not "the" question. It may be a question that happened to come up but it's certainly not "the" question here.

I answered that.

 

[Uphill Battle]

It's what every Jewish boy had to do (more or less).
It would've been attention-getting if He was born with full skills. It was partof His thing to suffer & experience a 'normal' life as a Jew, except His responses modeled human perfection.

an I'm sure he was taught to read the scriptures.

but I would dare say his knowledge of them didn't stem from Mary and Joseph.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 (New American Standard Bible)
"You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

"You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.

"You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates,

so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth."
​

And?

Who was with the children all day to instruct them? The fathers who worked? Or? Their mothers?

Proverbs 1:7-8 (New American Standard Bible)
"Hear, my son, your father's instruction
And do not forsake your mother's teaching;

Indeed, they are a graceful wreath to your head
And ornaments about your neck."

​

Does that say anything to you?

Mary knew Scriptures, and Jesus was also taught to read in the synagogue as a boy. Boys in Israel as a rule were taught to read. Even, David, who was a lowly shepherd boy, could read and write.

Jesus as a boy had to be able to read from the Torah in order to be bar mitzvah'd. Its Jewish tradition.



Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

I'm sorry, the assertion was made that Mary taught Jesus scriptures. that he knew them because of her.

I see no reason to believe this. The "instructions' of the mother in that passage are not detailed as the scriptures. Mothers teach children much, that is not in the scriptures.

Again, I state the assumption is being made that Mary was literate. The literacy rate for Jewish males was extremely high. Jewish women, not so much.

 

[racer]

You could alway flog me until I shut up.

Forgive me...

Who wants you to shut up? Your responses--perhaps in spite of your intent--are very educational . . .

 

[racer]

YOU DO!!! at least you are more creative

Wha . . . . I'm wounded . . . .

 

[racer]

I didn't say he needed it. I said the Apostles did.

Forgive me...

The apostles did? Why?

 

[racer]

You guys are getting rude.

I'll bow out now.

Racer... have a good day.

Forgive me...

This accusation of being rude keeps popping up. Tell me, what constitutes being rude according to your POV?

 

[racer]

Very well.

Would it be fair to say that you might have expected Christ to speak against the LXX to his Apostles if he did not want them to use it?

The Apostles quote the LXX verbatim in the NT.

See, here's what I consider rude: When a person keeps asserting an argument that has received a strike against it's validity as if they did not read the argument opposed to it? You my wish to pretend you didn't see the argument, but most everyone else most likely did see it.

 

[racer]

You already did ... cause prior to Bible there was oral tradition...

Are you asserting that prior to the Bible being compiled, none of the Gospel was written down?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I dont think so.
And here is why...
How come Christ did not tell the Jewish ppl to get out the scrolls to obey the word?
No He didnt, but He did in fact tell them to obey the chair of Moses. Didnt He?

So now tell me where the actual authority laid.

I am all ears.
Tell me how I assumed and correct me.

I am responding to this:

I dont think so.
And here is why...
How come Christ did not tell the Jewish ppl to get out the scrolls to obey the word?
No He didnt, but He did in fact tell them to obey the chair of Moses. Didnt He?

So now tell me where the actual authority laid.

Cuz the rest of the post was to UHB.

So . . .

How come Christ did not tell the Jewish ppl to get out the scrolls to obey the word?

That is a matter of interpretation not accepted authority. He could tell them all He desired . . . and they may not agree with the interpretation as many Rabbi quibbled in the Targums . . . Jesus to the masses and the Establishment would have been the same.

It doesn't change the fact . . . when Jesus appeals to the Scripture (such as the issue of marriage in Heaven) the Pharisess response is not to say "Hey don't use the Scriptures . . . they are not the authority here . . ." for the Scripture ARE IN FACT THE AUTHORITY. Even if they disagree with the INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures given by Christ . . . they still affirm the philosophical concept of the authority of the Scriptures.

And, Jesus did indeed tell His own disciples to obey the Scriptures.

So now tell me where the actual authority laid.

Same place where it always laid . . . the written revelation of God. Moses' commands were dictated to him by God Himself . . . and here is where the entire doctrine of the authority and inspiration of Scripture begins . . . the giving of the covenant in an indisputable source . . . namely our equivalent of "give me something in writing" when it comes to a contract that is legal and binding . . . IE it is authoritative. In this case, it is the UTMOST authority and everything else is subject to this. Hence Jesus quotes the Scriptures when dealing with Satan . . . NOT THE TARGUMS . . . and SATAN EVEN TRIES THE SAME . . . but Satan's was an attempt at interpretative proof texting.

Pax