How do we know that God is good?

[elman]

Okay.

So we would not find out.

Er... was there supposed to be an answer to my question in your reply? Or did I just miss it?

If that was not the answer to your question, what was your question?

 

[elman]

Here's where you're wrong. Our knowledge of God is not baseless, it is based on the Bible. Which is valid because your question doesn't argue against God's existence, it presupposes he exists and then asks how we can verify his morality. All that we know of God and his morality comes from the Bible, to use any other kind of source outside of it is purely shooting in the dark. If we're talking about the God of the Bible, it follows that you use the Bible to discern things about him.

There were people who believed in God before the Bible existed. There are people today who believe in God who have never seen a Bible. I disagree that we cannot believe in a loving Creator unless we have a Bible.

 

[Hakan101]

It can, or it can not. Part of the purpose of my question is to find out if we can determine which is it.

And neither benchmark appears to be useful for determining whether God is good, which means that "God is good" is an empty conclusion.

In short, your answer is: "Just take God's word for it."

That's not even an answer at all. Remember, I'm not a Christian who's already bought the whole spiel hook, line, and sinker. The very reason I asked this question is to find out if we can verify what God is saying. You'll have to do better than that.

Except that the Bible, too, comes from God. I'm not trying to discern God. I'm trying to verify God, at least in the morals department. There's a big difference.

Our knowledge of God is based purely on what he tells us, and nothing we can actually verify. The implications are irrelevant to those who wish to simply accept the current state of things as they are and not probe further for fear of finding out the truth, but it's relevant to me. Which is why I'm asking it.

So if you can't answer the question and have nothing better to contribute other than trying to dismiss the question as irrelevant, please go away and stop spamming my thread with useless replies, thanks.

You're not trying to verify God, your very question presupposes that has already been done. You're trying to verify his qualities, to see if he's really holy and good. And the only knowledge we have of God is from the Bible, which was written by God. Everything the Bible says makes sense if we assume it is being written in honesty, not deception. And without the Bible, there is no foundation to understand things about God, we are shooting in the dark.

Don't feign sincerity in searching for the truth by completely bypassing God's Word entirely. There is nothing about God you can verify as true, even the most conclusive evidence must be taken on faith. That is why your question is irrelevant and you know it. You say my replies are useless, that I don't have an answer, but really you just don't like the answer, because it's the exact thing you don't want to do: put your faith in God.

 

[Arcademus]

Everything the Bible says makes sense if we assume it is being written in honesty, not deception.

And you don't see the problem there?

And without the Bible, there is no foundation to understand things about God, we are shooting in the dark.

As I've already explained, the question wasn't to learn about or understand God. God is good, or so say the Christians. I got that memo ages ago. My question is whether if we can actually verify that.

Don't feign sincerity in searching for the truth by completely bypassing God's Word entirely. There is nothing about God you can verify as true, even the most conclusive evidence must be taken on faith. That is why your question is irrelevant and you know it. You say my replies are useless, that I don't have an answer, but really you just don't like the answer, because it's the exact thing you don't want to do: put your faith in God.

And this is where you start losing the plot entirely. Of course I don't want to put my faith in God, Captain Obvious. If I did I wouldn't be asking this question. I want to be able to verify whether God is good. Seriously, what are you trying to do, guilt trip me and make me feel bad for being a nasty evil agnostic? The kindest that could be said for you is that you're mildly amusing.

No, I don't like your answer, but don't let that trick you into believing that your answer isn't useless. A "just believe in God!" reply isn't even an answer or explanation, it's the desperate flailing of a believer who can't think of anything else to say. Which is all fine, I don't expect you to have an answer just because you're a Christian. Now if you can't answer the question please stop spamming your useless replies in your desperate attempt to somehow prove yourself. Just wait for the knowledgeable Christians to respond, then we can all learn.

 

[Hakan101]

And you don't see the problem there?

As I've already explained, the question wasn't to learn about or understand God. God is good, or so say the Christians. I got that memo ages ago. My question is whether if we can actually verify that.

And this is where you start losing the plot entirely. Of course I don't want to put my faith in God, Captain Obvious. If I did I wouldn't be asking this question. I want to be able to verify whether God is good. Seriously, what are you trying to do, guilt trip me and make me feel bad for being a nasty evil agnostic? The kindest that could be said for you is that you're mildly amusing.

No, I don't like your answer, but don't let that trick you into believing that your answer isn't useless. A "just believe in God!" reply isn't even an answer or explanation, it's the desperate flailing of a believer who can't think of anything else to say. Which is all fine, I don't expect you to have an answer just because you're a Christian. Now if you can't answer the question please stop spamming your useless replies in your desperate attempt to somehow prove yourself. Just wait for the knowledgeable Christians to respond, then we can all learn.

No, I don't see the problem. If you assume the Bible was written by God in an attempt to deceive us, then it makes no sense whatsoever and is not worth reading.

I'm not trying to guilt trip you, I'm trying to understand your motives. We cannot verify anything about God in the sense you're using the word. I don't think you're stupid, I think you know that's obvious, and that's why your question is irrelevant. I think you're asking a question that you already know the answer to for an ulterior reason.

We cannot verify or prove that God is actually good and not something else, or that he is not fooling us into doing evil when we think we're doing good. We take it on faith that he is good, because that's what we *can* do. That's a legitimate answer, while you may wish it was a useless reply, virtually all Christians have faith that God is good and is not feeding us lies about him. The fact that you keep rejecting this answer and calling it useless spam only shows that you cannot think of a proper response to it.

"Of course I don't want to put my faith in God?" Then why are you here asking questions to the faithful? The way I see it, you are either trying to build your own faith up, or tear our faith down.

 

[Arcademus]

No, I don't see the problem. If you assume the Bible was written by God in an attempt to deceive us, then it makes no sense whatsoever and is not worth reading.

I'm not starting off with the premise that the Bible is false. For the umpteenth time: my question is how do we know? Really, is that so difficult to understand? Can you tell me how can I make myself clearer? Or are you simply resorting to a straw man here?

We take it on faith that he is good, because that's what we *can* do. That's a legitimate answer, while you may wish it was a useless reply, virtually all Christians have faith that God is good and is not feeding us lies about him. The fact that you keep rejecting this answer and calling it useless spam only shows that you cannot think of a proper response to it.

I'm not sure why you think "just believe!" is a legitimate answer, but it certainly isn't a legitimate answer to the question of "how can we verify?". Instead of providing an answer to the question, you're telling people to not even consider the question. I'm calling it useless spam because it is useless spam. It's not a poor answer, it's not even an invalid answer, it isn't an answer at all.

Like I said, if you can't provide an answer, then please stop spamming.

"Of course I don't want to put my faith in God?" Then why are you here asking questions to the faithful? The way I see it, you are either trying to build your own faith up, or tear our faith down.

Because this is the Exploring Christianity forum, and I was thinking there may have been a logical answer to it. If you think it's so inappropriate to ask questions about Christianity in a Christian forum then the ones you should be complaining to are the mods so they can close down this forum, not me. No, I'm not here to build my own faith up, or tear your faith down. You need to lighten up and stop thinking that every question you don't know how to answer is meant as some sort of attack against you.

The fact that you seem trapped in some sort of siege mentality indicates that you're not all that secure in your own faith, which might be something you want to work on yourself instead of taking it out on me. You do know that it's possible to have a discussion without wagering your pride on the outcome, right?

 

[drich0150]

It can, or it can not. Part of the purpose of my question is to find out if we can determine which is it.And neither benchmark appears to be useful for determining whether God is good, which means that "God is good" is an empty conclusion.In short, your answer is: "Just take God's word for it."That's not even an answer at all. Remember, I'm not a Christian who's already bought the whole spiel hook, line, and sinker. The very reason I asked this question is to find out if we can verify what God is saying. You'll have to do better than that.Except that the Bible, too, comes from God. I'm not trying to discern God. I'm trying to verify God, at least in the morals department. There's a big difference.Our knowledge of God is based purely on what he tells us, and nothing we can actually verify. The implications are irrelevant to those who wish to simply accept the current state of things as they are and not probe further for fear of finding out the truth, but it's obviously relevant to me. Why else do you think I'm asking it?So if you can't answer the question and have nothing better to contribute other than poor attempts to dismiss the question, please go away and stop spamming my thread with useless replies, thanks.

you are aware you are in the exploring Christianity section of a christian website right? If your intention is to explore Christianity then you will have to learn to expect biblically based answers. It seems you want to argue a point of trivial philosophy and have little to no interest in exploring scripturally based answers. If so then what are you doing here?

 

[Hakan101]

I'm not starting off with the premise that the Bible is false. For the umpteenth time: my question is how do we know? Really, is that so difficult to understand? Can you tell me how can I make myself clearer? Or are you simply resorting to a straw man here?


I'm not sure why you think "just believe!" is a legitimate answer, but it certainly isn't a legitimate answer to the question of "how can we verify?". Instead of providing an answer to the question, you're telling people to not even consider the question. I'm calling it useless spam because it is useless spam. It's not a poor answer, it's not even an invalid answer, it isn't an answer at all.

Like I said, if you can't provide an answer, then please stop spamming.


Because this is the Exploring Christianity forum, and I was thinking there may have been a logical answer to it. If you think it's so inappropriate to ask questions about Christianity in a Christian forum then the ones you should be complaining to are the mods so they can close down this forum, not me. No, I'm not here to build my own faith up, or tear your faith down. You need to lighten up and stop thinking that every question you don't know how to answer is meant as some sort of attack against you.

The fact that you seem trapped in some sort of siege mentality indicates that you're not all that secure in your own faith, which might be something you want to work on yourself instead of taking it out on me. You do know that it's possible to have a discussion without wagering your pride on the outcome, right?

You're missing my point entirely. I'm saying we don't know. We can't know. But since you should be aware of that already, it sounds like a loaded question. If it's not, I apologize. But faith certainly is an answer, and that's my point. We can't verify God is actually good, but we trust that he is. Like drich said, you need to learn that biblical answers are legitimate. Otherwise there's no basis to learn things about God, and it makes you look like you just want to argue rather than learn.

 

[Arcademus]

you are aware you are in the exploring Christianity section of a christian website right? If your intention is to explore Christianity then you will have to learn to expect biblically based answers. It seems you want to argue a point of trivial philosophy and have little to no interest in exploring scripturally based answers. If so then what are you doing here?

Because the Bible is sourced from God as well, which makes it useless when I'm after external verification. Come on, it's not really such a difficult concept. How many times do I need to repeat it before you understand?

 

[sdbrown]

To answer the original question I would point to 2 realities outside of the bible.
1. Creation itself - go outside look closely at flowers, ducks feathers are amazing, look at each and every plant, bird, tree, etc. Then look at the amazing design of the body. Look at the stars at night, listen to the sounds of bugs and frogs. Look at a sunrise or a sunset. Spend time hiking by yourself immersed in God's creation just observing taking it in. Go to Colorado, look at the mountains. You can't see much of God's goodness looking at man made things.

2. The Peace of God - Look at those people you know who have a testimony of how accepting God has changed their lives and brought them peace even in suffering. We all have a hole in our lives that we need to fill, only God can fill it and until you've found that out, you will not feel lasting peace. Just the desire to seek truth is evidence of God's goodness.

I hope this helps.

 

[sdbrown]

One more thing I would point to is food. Taste an orange fresh of a tree, or an apple, or whatever fresh fruit or vegetable you like. think about all the diff. foods God has provided for our enjoyment and health. How about Love, that should point to God's goodness too. If you are married and experience the blessing of children and the blessing of intimacy, you'll know how good God is. And he gives those blessings to all people regardless of their belief in Him.

God is better than good. He is AWESOME.

Keep seeking, read Mathew 7:7 God loves you seeking truth, keep seeking and pray that if God is who he says he is, he will remove all your doubts and answer your questions.

 

[johnd1987]

This is something I struggle with too to be honest. If God is good why does he let a maniac (Satan) have dominion over his creation. This is due to his great plan. He is looking for rulers who will not betray him like the fallen angels did. So those who survive and persevere throughout all the deceptions and satanic influence will be people he can trust to rule with him. They are people who's minds do not change with the popular opinion who are steadfast and loyal.

If you look at the commandments they are all for our benefit. God loved us so much that he sacrificed his son to pay for all sins. The sacrifices in the old testament were used to show your love for your god. You would sacrifice something that you wanted and was valuable to you to pay for your sins. This would show your dedication to good and you are not just bsing it by claiming to be sorry but not really meaning it. God sacrificed something very valuable and important to him.

 

[SkyWriting]

Because the Bible is sourced from God as well, which makes it useless when I'm after external verification. Come on, it's not really such a difficult concept. How many times do I need to repeat it before you understand?

I thought I covered this, but maybe on another thread:

biblical archeology - Google Search

The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ

Is there credible evidence to demonstrate that the Bible is a reliable source .... eyewitness testimony, and external verification by early church father

 

[sdbrown]

This is something I struggle with too to be honest. If God is good why does he let a maniac (Satan) have dominion over his creation. This is due to his great plan. He is looking for rulers who will not betray him like the fallen angels did. So those who survive and persevere throughout all the deceptions and satanic influence will be people he can trust to rule with him. They are people who's minds do not change with the popular opinion who are steadfast and loyal.

I struggle with it too, to some extent. Thats why I enjoyed this thread. I think as humans we only can see thru human eyes and can't possibly understand why God would allow Satan to do what he does. But we know he does, read Job. there is something bigger at work than we can fully know. We have to trust that God is good. We get reassurance every day when we see a sunrise or sunset. However to those who are hurting, this may not seem like enough. It is easy to say God is good for me, because right now my life is wonderful. Before I got saved my life had serious issues. So I personally can testify that God is good. What I can't do is explain how he is good to someone who has been thru some of the awful things God allows men to do to each other. I just have to believe that the suffering is temporary and those that suffer will be comforted. But it is definately a hard topic.

One thing you said that I don't agree with is that God is looking for those who will not betray him. To some extent, I agree, but Paul says we have all sinned and fall short of God's requirements. Thats why its by Grace we have been saved, so none of us can boast. So it can't really be anything within ourselves. Also Peter betrayed Jesus 3 times and Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church". So God is looking for lost sheep. He's commanded believers to seek his lost sheep and bring them to the cross(home).

 

[razeontherock]

the common Christian assumption that our morals come from God.

Morality is a human concept. If you want to talk about something pertinent to G-d, that term is righteousness. The 2 may have some overlap, but not necessarily.

 

[razeontherock]

Thanks for the permission, but here is where we part company. Although we came to the same revelation, you found a puzzle and I found an answer. The point and purpose of my "thoughts" were to show you that this revelation is not only a question but also it's own answer. In that our measure of "good" is our creator's measure of good. Anything more or less is considered self righteousness. Why? because we do not have the fore-site or understand the long term implications of our own version "good" actions on others.

This goes back to what I posted on page 1, which raised questions that weren't answered. The Biblical concept of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" has nothing to do with knowing good from evil. Knowledge is used in a different sense; like as in Adam knew his wife.

 

[razeontherock]

the statement "God is good" doesn't tell us anything meaningful, because there's no point in judging X using standards as defined by X. It doesn't give us any useful information.

Is it then possible for us to determine whether God really is good? If so, how?

The whole point of the first story in the Bible is that we are so miniscule and subject to every little thing that what we perceive as good can in fact be the only thing that can harm us. You are trying to set yourself up as all-knowing. Good luck with that ...

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

 

[razeontherock]

If there's no way we can verify God's claims, then it makes every sense to entertain the possibility that He's lying and to explore the question.

How do you know your God is good?

Because His claims can be tested. We don't have a meaningless vacuum and call it "good." It's a concept. We merely attach a word to it.

G-d is good! How do we know? "O taste and see, that the Lord He is good" (Evidently a tactic you have not tried)

 

[razeontherock]

I'm trying to verify God, at least in the morals department. There's a big difference.

Yes there is. You expect to judge G-d. Or just take Him off the shelf and make Him dance?

Our knowledge of God is based purely on what he tells us, and nothing we can actually verify.

False. There's not a drop of Faith in your assertion here. What you're talking about here is not G-d at all, but perhaps a creation of your own?

 

[razeontherock]

You're not trying to verify God, your very question presupposes that has already been done. You're trying to verify his qualities, to see if he's really holy and good. And the only knowledge we have of God is from the Bible, which was written by God. Everything the Bible says makes sense if we assume it is being written in honesty, not deception. And without the Bible, there is no foundation to understand things about God, we are shooting in the dark.

Don't feign sincerity in searching for the truth by completely bypassing God's Word entirely. There is nothing about God you can verify as true, even the most conclusive evidence must be taken on faith. That is why your question is irrelevant and you know it. You say my replies are useless, that I don't have an answer, but really you just don't like the answer, because it's the exact thing you don't want to do: put your faith in God.

this is good but you are overlooking something significant:

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. (Romans 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made"

and

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Psalm 19:2) Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."