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How do we know anything?

mark kennedy

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There would seem to be no substantive or empirical argument against the proposition that knowledge comes to us through reflective thinking as well as practical experience. There is a vital need for substantive reason (that which exists in and of itself, in which attributes, properties and qualities reside) and empirical data (knowledge from experience or through the senses). But nothing to suggest one exists without the other. We can use deduction from principles to particulars or induction from particulars to principles. Our method might be pragmatic where we innovate what, ‘to do’, (Webster’s, 1979), based on outcome or consequences. Or a praxis where we decide, ‘to do’, (Webster’s, 1979), something using a time tested or traditional system. Still we have to decide both why we are doing something and how it can be done.

Duality of ideas and experience, mind, and body, subject and object (ad infinitum) tends to favor one part over the other. The analogy of man as a machine has led some to conclude that our existence is a purely mechanical one. At the other extreme some would have us transcend our physical frame were we exist as pure spirit. The truth is that our essential nature is both. It always has been and it always will be. I intend to demonstrate how those who deny this are flatly contradicted by their own reasoning.

The praxis of western thought can be traced back to Aristotle. In Aristotle’s logic our thinking must be theoretical as well as practical in order to ‘know’ anything with certainty. R.W Ross describes this parody and progression “From what sort of proposition he should demand proof (singular) and what sort of proofs should be demanded” (plural). Aristotle says in Nicomachean Ethics “Every art and every inquiry similarly every action or pursuit has been thought to aim at some good…but a certain difference is found in the ends.” How do we balance this parody? We have to be mindful of the extremes and maintain a deliberate balance. “…Not everyone can find the center of a circle but only a man who has proper knowledge…the first concern of a man who aims at a median (balance, center, focal point, hub) should be to avoid the extreme which is opposed to it.”(Luper, Brown, 1992). Aristotle is describing “structure common to all reasoning without regard to its subject matter” (W. Ross, 1959). Good shipbuilding produces a ship, good military strategy produces victory, and good economics produces wealth. The substance (ship, victory, profit) required a logical, empirical progression whether a product, goal, or profit. Reason required an objective that began, as an idea was a reaction to empirical sense data. The process is circular, like a gear the ratio of the outer teeth meshes the external world of sense and is connected by the spokes of conscious interaction with the hub of human cognition, the ego.

The question of where all substantive reason is derived presents a backup problem in philosophy; Thomas Aquinas resolves this using deduction. He starts with the need for things caused (plural) to have a primary first cause (singular). Then he describes how all reasoning must have commonality “natural things (plural) are directed to their end (singular). This he said is understood to be God. More about this later.

Immanuel Kant in his ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ says that knowledge comes to us through experience but that experience alone is not enough, “General truths…must be independent of experience, -clear and certain by themselves.” Here he is telling us that the main problem of metaphysics is parody. For reason to transcend the particulars there is a need for singularity. Socrates in his discussion with Meno deals with this, “Meno; I should answer that bees do not differ from one another as bees. Socrates; and if I went on to say Meno; tell me what is the quality in which they do not differ but are alike.” (Titus, Smith, Noland, 1972). This is a search for the transcendent principle of commonality. The substantive element in reality. This singularity is what Kant called apriori; a thing in and of itself, apprehended by us as an idea. Examples he gave were God, freedom and immortality.

Lebniz describes how we form ideas from our sense. We become aware of a discrepancy between the idea and what actually exists “Thus the idea of things which exists is exclusively due to the fact that God, the author of both things and the mind has endowed our mind with this power to infer from it’s own internal operations the truths that correspond perfectly (singular) with that of external things (plural). Whence although the idea of a circle, is not exactly like a circle, we may infer from the idea truths which experience would undoubtedly confirm concerning the true circle. (Titus, 1995).

These discrepancies have to be addressed using inductive reasoning. Obstacles appear in the sources of knowledge. Bacon makes a distinction between the various idols (representations) of cognition. “For it is a false assertion that the sense of man is the measure of things…because the individual man…refracts and discolors the light of nature”. We also have outside influences. “By the intercourse and association…in commerce…because…ill and unchoice words obstructs the understanding” Finally we have to critically discern systems of thought “dogmas of philosophy and wrong laws of demonstration, not only entire systems but many principles of science”. This is how you work from particulars to principles in empirical science.

This leads to the modern view. James describes it this way; “ that possibilities may exceed actualities. That is to say that the universe is not one unbending fact…but there is a certain ultimate plurality in it” What are lost here are primary or substantive first principles. “A criticism of current philosophizing from the standpoint of the traditional quality of its problems must begin somewhere, and the choice of a beginning is arbitrary. “ (Titus, 1995). The beginning has never been arbitrary it has just lost it’s substance.

There may be any number of proofs used to demonstrate the need for first cause (i.e. light must have a source; sun, fire, candle) but the need for a context never negates the need for a starting point (in geometry you start with a point and draw a line from there). The choice of beginning according to Aquinas is always the same the only things differ at is the context. “For at one time nothing was in if existence it would not have been possible for anything to have began to exist…there must also be something to which all beings have as the cause of their being, goodness and every other perfection…and this being we call God”. That’s causation (first mover), ontology (being), teleology (end to which all thins aim), but it’s always God. At least from the standpoint of the ‘traditional qualities of philosophies problems” (Titus, 1995).

Scientific positivists wield an analytical knife and start by slicing things that are natural parts of human cognition into pieces Aguste Comte writes…”each branch of our knowledge passes successively through three different theoretical states: the theological of fictitious, the metaphysical or abstract, and the scientific or the positive”.(Titus, H., 1995). Notice that he has stated that these are ‘successive’ he then goes on to say that they are by nature ‘even opposed’. Finally he tells us that they are ‘mutually exclusive’ If they are mutually exclusive (don’t share with one another) how can they be successive? I must have missed something. But then he describes them as “systems regarding the totality of phenomena” Does he mean to say that you need all three to get the totality? The answer would seem to be an emphatic yes. If it’s fictitious then how is it necessary? The reason is that there has to be a substantive objective for there to be a quality. Something good has to have some tangible context. The only tangible primary source as an objective reality would have to be God. Something that is true only if it’s empirically verified (a postoria) depends on a priori propositions that aren’t true? The contradiction here is that they are mutually exclusive and successive since they cannot be both.

Whenever we find someone saying that no one can know anything, it’s only natural to wonder whether [or how] the skeptic knows this”. (McDowell, 1972). According to Davis Hume empirical reason is so important it negates our idea of reality but our idea of self. “It cannot therefore be from any of these impressions (pain, pleasure, grief, joy, passions, sensations) or from any other that the idea of self is derived; consequently there is no such idea. This is so obvious it almost goes without saying but to refute this all you have to do is walk into a room where Hume is sitting and say ‘I’m looking for David Hume’. If he so much as think ‘I’m David Hume’ he proves by that very thought that he has an idea of self. He even has a name for it, he calls it David Hume. This is not just a question of but knowledge itself is suspect. “That all our ideas are nothing but copies of our impressions, or in other words. That tis impossible for us to think of anything that we have not antecedently felt” (Titus, 1972). You go into a machine shop with this kind of thinking you not only will have wheels with spokes missing, they will have no hubs.

East is east and west is west and never the two shall meet except in empirical and Buddhist thinking. Suzuki, a Buddhist scholar writes: “So we are told that the pleasures and pains they are transitory, like Maya. They have no substantial reality… If Im asked then what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. On a later page he writes; the famous gatha (saying) of Jeyne by no means exhausts all Zen teaches. So what does Zen teach, something or nothing? Admittedly logic has its limitations and not everything has to have an antithesis but I can’t accept that Zen teaches something and nothing at the same time. This is what happens when you abandon substantive reason; your circles have no true centers.

We have a sense of both substantive and empirical truth. We use inductive reasoning but why does that have to diminish the deductive reasoning that traditional philosophy has to offer. The praxis of tradition can serve me as well as the pragmos of modern innovation, why must I choose between the two as if they were enemies. The need to find the median is still difficult to the point of being almost rare, but I belive its do’able .

References:
Kant, I. A critique of pure reason.(1961). Second edition. Dolphin Books. Garden City, New York.

Luper, S.; Brown, C. (1992). Harcourt, Brace College Publishers. Fort Worth, TX.
McDowell, J. (1972). The New evidence that demands a verdict. Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN

Titus, H.H.; Smith, S.M.; Noland, R.T. Living issues in philosophy. (1995). Wadsworth Publishing Company. Belmont CA.

W.D. Ross. Aristotle, a complete exposition of his works and thought. (1959). The World Publishing Company. Cleveland Ohio and New York, NY.

Webster. New twentieth century dictionary. (2nd ed.) William Collins Publishers (1979)
 

FreezBee

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mark kennedy said:
.... According to Davis Hume empirical reason is so important it negates our idea of reality but our idea of self. “It cannot therefore be from any of these impressions (pain, pleasure, grief, joy, passions, sensations) or from any other that the idea of self is derived; consequently there is no such idea. This is so obvious it almost goes without saying but to refute this all you have to do is walk into a room where Hume is sitting and say ‘I’m looking for David Hume’. If he so much as think ‘I’m David Hume’ he proves by that very thought that he has an idea of self. He even has a name for it, he calls it David Hume. This is not just a question of but knowledge itself is suspect. “That all our ideas are nothing but copies of our impressions, or in other words. That tis impossible for us to think of anything that we have not antecedently felt” (Titus, 1972). You go into a machine shop with this kind of thinking you not only will have wheels with spokes missing, they will have no hubs.
Could you please explain, what you mean by "self"? The name "David Hume" refers not to the self of David Hume, I'd say. It refers to a certain Scotsman in the 18th cenury ce, which is (was) something empirical. Humans do have a self-awareness, a reflective mind, but is that a "self"? How do you know about yourself? Other people will tell you their impression of you, which may be contrary to your self-impression, but are they wrong, and you right?

mark kennedy said:
East is east and west is west and never the two shall meet except in empirical and Buddhist thinking. Suzuki, a Buddhist scholar writes: “So we are told that the pleasures and pains they are transitory, like Maya. They have no substantial reality… If Im asked then what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. On a later page he writes; the famous gatha (saying) of Jeyne by no means exhausts all Zen teaches. So what does Zen teach, something or nothing? Admittedly logic has its limitations and not everything has to have an antithesis but I can’t accept that Zen teaches something and nothing at the same time. This is what happens when you abandon substantive reason; your circles have no true centers.
The teacher will teach the pupil something and nothing - if the pupil doesn't listen, something will be nothing, and if the pupil does listen, then even nothing will be something.

mark kennedy said:
We have a sense of both substantive and empirical truth. We use inductive reasoning but why does that have to diminish the deductive reasoning that traditional philosophy has to offer. The praxis of tradition can serve me as well as the pragmos of modern innovation, why must I choose between the two as if they were enemies. The need to find the median is still difficult to the point of being almost rare, but I belive its do’able .
I read this as if you imply thet inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning are enemies. They need not be, ask Blaise Pascal!

Good post!


cheers

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mark kennedy

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TeddyKGB said:
A lot of good stuff in there.

One question: Are you working from the 'justified, true belief' definition of "knowledge"?

Sure, why not, the proposition is that knowledge is both experiential and intuitive. The immediate perception is a common sense perception but there must be confirmation. This is the apriori apostori duality that most transendentalists have struggled with, from Aristotle to you and me. The real problem I would like to see addressed is where the actual fulcrum is. I can believe that the moon is made of green cheese but how do we determine what the moon is actually made of? The progression is allways from what is believed to what is known for a fact but how do we get there, that is the prize.
 
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FreezBee

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mark kennedy said:
I would like to see addressed is where the actual fulcrum is. I can believe that the moon is made of green cheese but how do we determine what the moon is actually made of? The progression is allways from what is believed to what is known for a fact but how do we get there, that is the prize.
The "actual fulcrum" is something you define.

As for, whether the moon is made out of green cheese, you could say that the moon is made out of green cheese, no matter what everybody else said: for you it's made out of green cheese.

You could also define some criteria for, what it would mean for the moon to be made out of green cheese, and some metod to determine, whether these criteria were fulfilled.

It all boils down to definitions - in a way knowledge is always à priori.

For instance, nuclear research labs are looking for various sub-atomic particles predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. Any failed attempt to detect a particle is discounted, and when a lab with high enough eank claims to have detected a certain particle, then suddenly all labs detect that particle.

Often it may seem imagination and reality are just the same.

True knowledge is what is accepted as such by those you want to count yourself among.


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mark kennedy

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FreezBee said:
Could you please explain, what you mean by "self"? The name "David Hume" refers not to the self of David Hume, I'd say. It refers to a certain Scotsman in the 18th cenury ce, which is (was) something empirical. Humans do have a self-awareness, a reflective mind, but is that a "self"? How do you know about yourself? Other people will tell you their impression of you, which may be contrary to your self-impression, but are they wrong, and you right?

Let's try an example from one man's search for the truth:

"I had remarked that it is sometimes requisite in common life to follow opinions which one know to be most uncertain, exactly as though they were indisputable, as has been said above. But becasue in this case I wished to give myself enitrely to the search after Truth. I thought that it was necessary for me to take an apparenntly opposite course, and to reject as absolutely false everything as to which I could imagine the least found of doubt, in order to see if afterwards there remained anything in my belief that was enitrely certain...I rejected as false all the reasons formerly accepted by me as demonstrations...But immediately afterwards I noticed that whilst I thus wished to think all things false, it was absolutely essential that the 'I' who thought this should be somewhat, and remarking that this is truth 'I think, therefore I am' was so certain and so assured that the most extravagant suppositions brought forward by the sceptics were incapable of shaking it, I came to the conclusion that I could receive it without scruple as the first principle of the Philosophy for which I was seeking."​

(Rene' Descartes, Discourse on Method and Meditations on First Philosophy)

Obviously, another persons opinion has an influence on how you think. You accept time tested 'demonstrations' described by Francis Bacon and Rene' Descarte, but they only take you so far. How you know, that you know, what you know is what epistomology is all about. Descartes seems to think that he can only know for certain that he indeed exists no matter how many things in his world he may doubt.

After Sir Issac Newton read this he called it, 'entirely too atheistic'. I personally think he makes a great point here. We are not the product, in our minds, of what has been antecedently felt as Hume thought. To put this in perspective ask yourself this question:

If a person was born without any sense of sight, sound, taste...etc and were somehow kept alive, would this person have a single thought in their head?


The teacher will teach the pupil something and nothing - if the pupil doesn't listen, something will be nothing, and if the pupil does listen, then even nothing will be something.

Oh, your good! The teacher will teach and the pupil may or may not learn from the lesson. If the pupil can actually percieve the knowledge the teacher is communicating it enhances the pupils understanding. At times, just the way the teacher presents the lesson is a lesson in and of itself. So, as you say, nothing will be something simply because the interaction triggered mental mechanisms and the pupil was provoked to thought.


I read this as if you imply thet inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning are enemies. They need not be, ask Blaise Pascal!

That's my whole problem with this duality concept, we allways use both objective and subjective reasoning. As an example, a lab scientist uses inductive reasoning while doing experiments, his work and reasoning is highly inductive. Sure, he is limited in the scope of the experiment to the parameters set before he starts testing the hypothesis. Still one is left wondering, where did the question come from in the first place. I would submit that it came from the scientists reasoning process apart from any external data. The abstractions he uses to form a hypothesis is the raw material of formal logic, the experiment is simply an expression of it.

These two forms of reasoning are not alienated from one another, they mesh like wheels in a machine. At times the inductive cog is engaged and the course set in that direction is highly objective. At times the deductive cog is ingaged which move the reasoning in another direction, but never does one move without the other.

Let's say this scientist brings the results of his experiment to his friend the Theologian. The theologian will begin with his deductive logic about God and the various things important to these concepts. After a while the scientist will persuade the theologian to try to understand the experiment from another perspective. Just look at if for what it is, the wheels begin to move in the other direction.

Good post!


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- FreezBee

Thanks FreezBee, that was fun. I hope I didn't run off on too many tangents, I have been known to do that from time to time.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy said:
Obviously, another persons opinion has an influence on how you think. You accept time tested 'demonstrations' described by Francis Bacon and Rene' Descarte, but they only take you so far. How you know, that you know, what you know is what epistomology is all about. Descartes seems to think that he can only know for certain that he indeed exists no matter how many things in his world he may doubt.

After Sir Issac Newton read this he called it, 'entirely too atheistic'. I personally think he makes a great point here. We are not the product, in our minds, of what has been antecedently felt as Hume thought.
As I recall, Descartes next "proved" the existence of God - he was Catholic after all :) I don't recall his argumentation, but probably something with the idea of an infinite being. How can such an idea exist, if only the now-and-here self exists? Yes, we do appear to have ideas that cannot be reduced to sense impressions, such as an idea of an infinite god. But do we at all know, what we mean by such an idea? That's what I see as the question: such irreducible ideas are extremely vague, when we try to explain them - or we need to define them negatively: everything we know about is finite, so in-finite (not finite) is a quality we ascribe to a non-observable god. At least imho :)

mark kennedy said:
If a person was born without any sense of sight, sound, taste...etc and were somehow kept alive, would this person have a single thought in their head?
Good question! Since thoughts are usually tied in with use of language, and such a person would have problems learning a language, we would either have to accept thoughts that need not be expressed in a language or that there might be some kind of "natural language". What do you say to that?

mark kennedy said:
That's my whole problem with this duality concept, we allways use both objective and subjective reasoning. As an example, a lab scientist uses inductive reasoning while doing experiments, his work and reasoning is highly inductive. Sure, he is limited in the scope of the experiment to the parameters set before he starts testing the hypothesis. Still one is left wondering, where did the question come from in the first place. I would submit that it came from the scientists reasoning process apart from any external data. The abstractions he uses to form a hypothesis is the raw material of formal logic, the experiment is simply an expression of it.

These two forms of reasoning are not alienated from one another, they mesh like wheels in a machine. At times the inductive cog is engaged and the course set in that direction is highly objective. At times the deductive cog is ingaged which move the reasoning in another direction, but never does one move without the other.
Yes, they are both needed. We don't learn by simple induction, if we do not make some kind of testable theories out of our inductions, I would say. Again I'll refer you to Blaise Pascal for his deductive-hypothetical method.

mark kennedy said:
Let's say this scientist brings the results of his experiment to his friend the Theologian. The theologian will begin with his deductive logic about God and the various things important to these concepts. After a while the scientist will persuade the theologian to try to understand the experiment from another perspective. Just look at if for what it is, the wheels begin to move in the other direction.
Yes, you can observe the same with creationists and evolutionist. The creationist sees God's action in all the creation, while the evolutionist sees evolution all over the place. À priori ideas play a large part in our way of interpreting the world and acting in it. These ideas need not be innate, but are difficult to tell from innate ideas.

mark kennedy said:
Grace and peace,
Mark

Grace and peace to you as well

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mark kennedy

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FreezBee said:
As I recall, Descartes next "proved" the existence of God - he was Catholic after all :)

Yes he was Catholic and served as an officer in the 30 years war. His Discourse on Method and Meditations on First Philosophy was based on his thoughts during this period. I can't find the exact quote but he descibes sitting in front of a pot belly stove and reflecting on the things that were finally put to paper.

Starting with 'I think therefore I am' he began to wonder if they was a more perfect knowledge beyond knowledge that he exists. Here I think he is making the transition from subjective sense (not sensory perception but self) to an objective truth beyond himself.

"In this way it could but follow that it had been placed in me bt a Nautre which was really more perfect than mine could be, and which even had within itself all the perfections of which I could form any idea-that is to say, to put in a word, which was God."

He procedes to discern the differences between God and himself. I really liked this part:

"If there are finally any persons who are not sufficiently persuaded of the existance of God and of their soul by the reasons which I have brought forward, I wish that they should know that all other things of which they perhaps think themselves more assured (such as possessing a body, and that there are stars and an earth and so on) are less certain."

That's epistimology in a nutshell, how do we know anything?

I don't recall his argumentation, but probably something with the idea of an infinite being. How can such an idea exist, if only the now-and-here self exists? Yes, we do appear to have ideas that cannot be reduced to sense impressions, such as an idea of an infinite god. But do we at all know, what we mean by such an idea? That's what I see as the question: such irreducible ideas are extremely vague, when we try to explain them - or we need to define them negatively: everything we know about is finite, so in-finite (not finite) is a quality we ascribe to a non-observable god. At least imho :)

You had me right up untill you said, 'such ideas are extremely vauge'. God being infintie does create a problem since obviously we are not. This is not all that vauge and I am convinced that we can know this perfectly without understanding it entirely. Subjectivly we have an a priori reason for apprehending this as an objective reality. In theology this is simply divided between communicable and incommunicable attributes. For instance, we can discern God's immutable attributes and his divine nature perfectly without understanding them entirely. The real problem is whether or not we attribute our imperfections to God who is alltogether perfect.


Good question! Since thoughts are usually tied in with use of language, and such a person would have problems learning a language, we would either have to accept thoughts that need not be expressed in a language or that there might be some kind of "natural language". What do you say to that?

Language is an expression of thought that communicates impressions. Not all of our thoughts are communicated with language and not all of our thoughts reflect reality. I could tell you of a dream I had that I thought was real while having it, but upon waking I will realize that it was just a dream. The question of whether or not a sense deprived person has a thought is a difficult one. This individule would not nessacarily be devoid of sense date since the brian (I am assuming is fully fuctional) is linked to sensory data but limited to things like temperature, pressure, balance...etc. For whatever reason even these maginal inferances are not entering the conscious mind and one could wonder if there was anything going on in the conscious mind at all. Since natural language must procede from cognitative thought I would say that thoughts do exist that are merely expressed in language.


Yes, they are both needed. We don't learn by simple induction, if we do not make some kind of testable theories out of our inductions, I would say. Again I'll refer you to Blaise Pascal for his deductive-hypothetical method.

Pascal seemed to understand that deductive and inductive reasoning is interactive. Sure, science needs testable hypothesis but the ultimate goal is a valid theory based on inductive logic. By the way, science was not allways reliant on inductive methodologies. At one time experimentation was considered a low ranking method for understanding the world around us. Sir Issac Newton did a series of demonstration using prisims, lenses and demonstrated that light was composed of seven colors. He dismissed arguments from deductive reasoning and said that in order to disprove his theory on optics there must be demonstrative proof. His experimentum crucis was a watershed moment for modern science and led to his Principia which was his First Philosophy of Science.


Yes, you can observe the same with creationists and evolutionist. The creationist sees God's action in all the creation, while the evolutionist sees evolution all over the place. À priori ideas play a large part in our way of interpreting the world and acting in it. These ideas need not be innate, but are difficult to tell from innate ideas.

Evolution is defined in biology as the change of alleles in populations over time. The extent to which alleles my change through natural processes is the only real question in the Theory of Evolution. We know that because of recombination the alleles will change over time, I have not seen an intelligent argument to the contrary. The parameters of evolution are known as the coeffiecants of selection which is a fancy way of saying the benefits must outweigh the negative effects. Where a priori assumptions come in is the ultimate cause of major transitions when looking at a single common ancestor model. Do things change as much as they say they do or is this just assumed because God cannot be an explanation.

Grace and peace to you as well

- FreezBee

Grace to you and peace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Mark
 
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