How do we become perfect?

[SpiritPsalmist]

That's a fine point, but NO ONE can do "only" what they see the Father doing, no one but Jesus.
We all, like the Apostle Paul, do even that which should not do and don't do that which we should.
There is not one perfect, no not one.
Therefore there is a process of perfection that God will complete after this sojourn of 'life' is over.

just my thoughts
Your Brother
John

Where does scripture say that no one can do only what they see the Father doing? Jesus did it as a human. He did not call on His special powers as God. He called on His authority as any other believer today can call on them. People seem to not notice the last thing that Paul says in the chapter you referrenced. . .He says, (my paraphrase) "thank God that thorough Jesus Christ I am delivered from this". He's not conceding that being like Jesus is hopeless. He's declaring that "I can do all things through Jesus Christ, Who gives me strength."

I agree it is a process. A process of us dying to ourselves and coming alive to what Christ says.

 

[altya]

To follow Jesus is the way to become like Him and that is what we aim for.

 

[SnuP]

I think that the fully God and fully man part makes Jesus very special.
He did have the same problems we have, but he Never sinned... we have and always will sin.
There's LOTS more that makes Jesus way specially: For instance the fact that he is GOD, we aren't. His mission (Messiah) was unique and was greater than ours or any that will follow after us and therefore his "equiping" was all that much greater.
There are even old testament prophecies concerning him. He's mentioned in almost all books of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
He had a perfect knowledge of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
We can't live a perfect life, that's why we have no justification in and of ourselves, it is only through Jesus Christ that we are justified by faith.

Good discussion.
Your Brother
John

Of this there is little to argue, but, your responce means that you missed my point. At least I think it does.

My point is that Jesus' sinless nature was not a result of His diety, but rather a result of his relationship. His uniqueness and diety is not in question, but it had no impact on His ability to resist sin, since He left that behind when He was born.

My point is that if what I am saying is true, then we have the same potential to be sinless after salvation, as long as we develope the same type of relationship that Jesus had with the Father.

Think about some of the things that Jesus said about being in Him.

 

[Brother John]

You all have given me much to think about.

IF we can be perfect now, through Christ....
lets do it.
If we cant????


LITERALLY: at least we died trying.
Your Brother
John

 

[SnuP]

The other thingk that You should note, is the extreme emphisis on persuing God that I present. I don't present the idea that you can do anything in our selves. But, that by virtue of proximity to the persona of God, we are changed.

We are what we believe, and we emulate those that we hang around with.

If we believe that we are sons of God, children of the Father, then why aren't we our Father's son? And if we are touching God as much as we claim, how come He has so little influence?

A God of power has the ability to infuence us down to our genetic make-up. Lets really give Him the chance.

 

[Brother John]

The other thingk that You should note, is the extreme emphisis on persuing God that I present. I don't present the idea that you can do anything in our selves. But, that by virtue of proximity to the persona of God, we are changed.

We are what we believe, and we emulate those that we hang around with.

If we believe that we are sons of God, children of the Father, then why aren't we our Father's son? And if we are touching God as much as we claim, how come He has so little influence?

A God of power has the ability to infuence us down to our genetic make-up. Lets really give Him the chance.

I'm more than open to be as perfect or near perfect as God will work me into being. I agree that any Holiness in me is only that of the Son and requires my attention in building a relationship with Him.

I agree that we emulate those around us, but I don't believe that we are what we believe. When I was a sinner, I didn't yet believe that I was a sinner... but I was. I could believe that my word held power, but it doesn't. Only God's word does. But God's Word lives in my heart/mind and He gives me what strength I need.

Your Brother
John

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm more than open to be as perfect or near perfect as God will work me into being. I agree that any Holiness in me is only that of the Son and requires my attention in building a relationship with Him.

I agree that we emulate those around us, but I don't believe that we are what we believe. When I was a sinner, I didn't yet believe that I was a sinner... but I was. I could believe that my word held power, but it doesn't. Only God's word does. But God's Word lives in my heart/mind and He gives me what strength I need.

Your Brother
John

If He says, any man who is in Christ is a new creature and that old things are passed away and all things have become new, then we are to believe that. It's not a matter of my word power, but His Word Power. If we are speaking only what His Word says, then our words very much not only holds but unleashes power.

 

[SnuP]

The referance to being what we believe is actually pertaining to limits that we put on our selves, and not much else. If you believe that you are worthless, then you will behave as if you are. Its a matter of belief effecting behavor, not the physical, or metaphysical world. Because I believe that I am healed, then I will behave as if God has healed me. Because I believe that God loves me, then I act with confidence and security.

 

[Brother John]

If He says, any man who is in Christ is a new creature and that old things are passed away and all things have become new, then we are to believe that. It's not a matter of my word power, but His Word Power. If we are speaking only what His Word says, then our words very much not only holds but unleashes power.

I think that that's pretty much what I was saying. His word lives within me, he gives me the strength I need. (strength unlimited, according to His Will)
It's all good.

Your brother
John

 

[Brother John]

The referance to being what we believe is actually pertaining to limits that we put on our selves, and not much else. If you believe that you are worthless, then you will behave as if you are. Its a matter of belief effecting behavor, not the physical, or metaphysical world. Because I believe that I am healed, then I will behave as if God has healed me. Because I believe that God loves me, then I act with confidence and security.

I think that that's a good way to look at it.
I see what you are saying, we act/behave from the basis of our beliefs.
When I was a sinner, I acted as though everything was 'ok'. (even though I wasn't right with God yet)
But God made me Holy by accounting His Son's Holiness as my own (His mantle on me).... so since I believe that, I will act accordingly. Seeking Holiness and being thankful.

Does that jive with your point?


Your brother
John

 

[look]

HEY BROTHER JOHN!!!

 

[hal]

For me, it means to become Christlike.
He was the protoype so to speak and our example.
It should our goal for which we strive. For me it has been, and still is, a journey. However, if it is a divinew command, it is possible.
And the Holy Spirit was sent to be our Helper.

 

[altya]

For me, it means to become Christlike.
He was the protoype so to speak and our example.
It should our goal for which we strive. For me it has been, and still is, a journey. However, if it is a divinew command, it is possible.
And the Holy Spirit was sent to be our Helper.

I agree with you

 

[Godisincontrol]

How does a christian become perfect.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do we keep a command that all of those Brokendown Unenlighteded Terminally Tormented souls say is impossible.

If you are a BUTT soul please don't be offended.
Oh and don't responded either.

The bible says any man that says he is without sin is a liar. So, this makes me believe we will probably not be perfect until we are with him.

How many times do we sin a day. Hmmm let's see: Pass up a poor person; do something not in faith, get angry; over eat, watch something on tv unpleasing to God; on the computer discussing things that don't matter when people are dying in their sin and we should be witnessing; feeding our mouth before feeding a poor neighbor, loving money, loving the world, etc.

I think people think it's drinking, drugs and sex that are the big sins, but God is soooo Holy, that everything we do in the flesh is not pleasing to Him.

But, He knows this and died for us. He took these heavy burdens for us on the cross. As we read His word and get to know Him more, we are more aware of our sins and more sensitive to Him; yet, I probably sin many times a day, and I don't drink or smoke.

Paul made it sound in the Bible like he never arrived either, so I would continue to look to Jesus and thank Him for saving you from your sins. Praise be to Jesus, we are no longer under the law

 

[Godisincontrol]

If He says, any man who is in Christ is a new creature and that old things are passed away and all things have become new, then we are to believe that. It's not a matter of my word power, but His Word Power. If we are speaking only what His Word says, then our words very much not only holds but unleashes power.

The book of Romans in and around the end of chapter 7 and the beginning of chapter 8 teaches us Inwardly we are indeed new creatures in Christ. However, the treasure is in an earthen vessel and this produces the conflict of falling short of the glory of God in our behavior. Like the people in Haggai's time we have a problem when it comes to doing what is right or doing "works" that are acceptable to God. Because we have the Holy Spirit in an unrenewed body, everything we do comes out through a dirty filter, the flesh. Thus it becomes contaminated. Fortunately, God is at work outside of us as well as dwelling within us. He can correct what we do and will use anything and everything to work good in us and for us. He is faithful to complete what He has begun.

God doesn't really see you as a sinner anymore but as one who is as righteous as Jesus Himself (by faith Jesus' righteousness is ours).

"For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good." (Rom 7:15-16).

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom 7:24). Sounds to me like Paul and I have something in common.

So, even though Paul became a new creature, he still struggled.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom 7:24). Sounds to me like Paul and I have something in common.

Why did you leave the next sentense of scripture off? It greatly defy's your conclusions. In verse 25, in answer to his own question, "Who will set me free?", Paul answers with (AMP) "O thank God! He will through Jesus Christ, the Anointed One, our Lord!

So, even though Paul became a new creature, he still struggled.

Surely, you would not say that Paul was never set free and that he never grew up? That conclusion, again goes against verse 25.

It is expected that we mature. . .If we are still struggling with the same issues we were struggling with 40 yrs ago when we first became a Christian, then we are immature. Of course the world has another name for a 40 yr old that still acts like a 1 yr old. . .it's called retarded.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The bible says any man that says he is without sin is a liar. So, this makes me believe we will probably not be perfect until we are with him.

Yes, scripture does say this, but what is in the past is in the past. If God no longer see's us as sinner's why would we continue to claim that we still are?

How many times do we sin a day. Hmmm let's see: Pass up a poor person; do something not in faith, get angry; over eat, watch something on tv unpleasing to God; on the computer discussing things that don't matter when people are dying in their sin and we should be witnessing; feeding our mouth before feeding a poor neighbor, loving money, loving the world, etc.

Jesus said that He did only what He saw the Father doing. Our goal is to be like Jesus, not come up with excuses as to why we cannot. Nor are we to judge others for what we perceive as lack.

Your examples were things that need to be overcome, however, what you perceive as "things that don't matter", or "non-witnessing activity", is your perception only, and not necessarily God's. One must be careful to judge themselves only and not their neighbors and/or brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I think people think it's drinking, drugs and sex that are the big sins, but God is soooo Holy, that everything we do in the flesh is not pleasing to Him.

That is why we are told to die to our flesh and to put on the righteousness of Christ.

But, He knows this and died for us. He took these heavy burdens for us on the cross. As we read His word and get to know Him more, we are more aware of our sins and more sensitive to Him; yet, I probably sin many times a day, and I don't drink or smoke.

We're also expected to ask the Holy Spirit to show us our sins so that we don't continue to sin every day.

Paul made it sound in the Bible like he never arrived either, so I would continue to look to Jesus and thank Him for saving you from your sins. Praise be to Jesus, we are no longer under the law

Never is a strong word for one sentense out of many books.

God is the one who said, "Be ye", surely you do not think he was just kidding?

 

[IKTCA]

.

 

[SnuP]

Your limitation is your limiting belief. You can move close to God, because you believe that you can't be changed. Such awsome peradoxes. I am often amazed at people who spend time focusing on all of he 'sin' in their lives. Everything becomes a sin, and their imperfection, their humanity, slaps then in the face every day. They even call simple mistakes, errors in judgement sin. I am perplexed at how anyone could deal with such condemnation. No wonder so many in the church have lost their joy. You are what you believe. If you believe that you are a limited fleshly individual, then that is what you are doomed to be. But if you truely believe that you have no limitations, that you are really a spiritual being, and a child of the King, they you will act and be just that. This is the real way to have a perfect relationship with God, unhindered. This is the way to be perfect, even now, and never sin again.

 

[altya]

Your limitation is your limiting belief. You can move close to God, because you believe that you can't be changed. Such awsome peradoxes. I am often amazed at people who spend time focusing on all of he 'sin' in their lives. Everything becomes a sin, and their imperfection, their humanity, slaps then in the face every day. They even call simple mistakes, errors in judgement sin. I am perplexed at how anyone could deal with such condemnation. No wonder so many in the church have lost their joy. You are what you believe. If you believe that you are a limited fleshly individual, then that is what you are doomed to be. But if you truely believe that you have no limitations, that you are really a spiritual being, and a child of the King, they you will act and be just that. This is the real way to have a perfect relationship with God, unhindered. This is the way to be perfect, even now, and never sin again.

Focusing on sin is one of the biggest problems that hinder people to grow spiritually. Read the thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t67286