How do Seventh Day Adventists feel about the Statue of Liberty?

[Constantine the Sinner]

Mason symbolism plentiful

Not really surprising, the Vatican's chief banker was a Freemason, and he was murdered in order to cover up a scandal (I am speaking, of course, of the Banco Ambrosiano scandal). And that was only the tip of the iceberg, that particular Masonic Lodge (Propaganda Due) was connected to dozens of murders, including the Bologna Massacre.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Mason symbolism plentiful

Keep in mind that the Jesuits created Masonary so it would be more correct to say that Masonic Lodges have a lot of Jesuit/RC symbolism in them.

 

[Albion]

Honouring it? Not on my life... it was a gift from atheistic France during the French Revolution.

It wasn't given during the French Revolution.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It wasn't given during the French Revolution.

You are correct... my apologies... it was given as a gift to commemorate the French and American Revolutions, iirc. The tie in to the atheistic French revolution is evident in the goddess of reason/liberty theme, tied to the goddess of Columbia. Seems both were throwing down the shackles of the Papal power and this was a commemoration of that...

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

You are correct... my apologies... it was given as a gift to commemorate the French and American Revolutions, iirc. The tie in to the atheistic French revolution is evident in the goddess of reason/liberty theme, tied to the goddess of Columbia. Seems both were throwing down the shackles of the Papal power and this was a commemoration of that...

America rebelled against Britain, which was extremely Protestant. Not against the Pope.

 

[Albion]

You are correct... my apologies... it was given as a gift to commemorate the French and American Revolutions, iirc. The tie in to the atheistic French revolution is evident in the goddess of reason/liberty theme, tied to the goddess of Columbia. Seems both were throwing down the shackles of the Papal power and this was a commemoration of that...

There might be something to that, but it seems quite a stretch. All over the West, the classical age (Rome and Greece) was seen as an inspiration for modern men; and such images are more representative of that idea than of paganism, or Masonry, or any of the other theories.

Look at our own history until recently--on coinage, statuary, in the national capital, etc. There's Classicism all over the place...because the Romans and Greeks were remembered as republics or democracies rather than monarchies. Today when there are few monarchies left, that contrast doesn't inspire people as much as it once did.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

There might be something to that, but it seems quite a stretch. All over the West, the classical age (Rome and Greece) was seen as an inspiration for modern men; and such images are more representative of that idea than of paganism, or Masonry, or any of the other theories.

Look at our own history until recently--on coinage, statuary, in the national capital, etc. There's Classicism all over the place...because the Romans and Greeks were remembered as republics or democracies rather than monarchies. Today when there are few monarchies left, that contrast doesn't inspire people as much as it once did.

Trying to separate the Classical Age from paganism is like trying to separate Medieval Europe from Christianity or the modern Middle East from Islam.

 

[Albion]

Trying to separate the Classical Age from paganism is like trying to separate Medieval Europe from Christianity or the modern Middle East from Islam.

I don't think so. But as I said in that post, the connection that was so obvious and popular in an earlier part of our history doesn't hold anymore, and people nowadays just don't get it.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I don't think so. But as I said in that post, the connection that was so obvious and popular in an earlier part of our history doesn't hold anymore, and people nowadays just don't get it.

The anti-monarchist dimension of idealization of the ancients was the culmination of the nostalgia for the pagan past, not its source. Nostalgia for the pagan Greeks and Romans started long before the Enlightenment, it was really something that came out of the Renaissance. And back then, the main political contest was between monarchist and Ultramontanist, which is what ended up provoking the Donation of Constantine. Dante, for instance, took the monarchist side (see De Monarchia), which ended up getting him exiled.

Although there were already struggles for a return to the pagan political system even in the Renaissance, prior to the Enlightenment they were mostly confined to Italy. Machiavelli was tortured for his association with Republicans.

 

[Albion]

The anti-monarchist dimension of idealization of the ancients was the culmination of the nostalgia for the pagan past, not its source.

I don't see that that changes anything with this particular discussion. If we're to believe that the Statue of Liberty is a tribute to paganism, I think that's a non-starter of a theory.

 

[mmksparbud]

Keep in mind that the Jesuits created Masonary so it would be more correct to say that Masonic Lodges have a lot of Jesuit/RC symbolism in them.

What???!!! Don't think so!!

The oldest extant document associated with Freemasonry is the Regius Poem which is believed to have been written around the year 1390 and purports to be a copy of an older book. It describes the moral duties of the operative workman and has a remote connection with Freemasonry as that term is used to-day. But we must have a starting point and this is as good as any. The next oldest document is the Cooke Manuscript and is supposed to have been prepared around the year 1410. There are many similar manuscripts that have been discovered over the years which related to this subject and have points of similarities in their language and general content. The oldest minute book extant relating to a lodge that had non-operative members is the one belonging to Mary’s Chapel for the year 1598; and the next oldest one is that of Kilwinning Lodge; both of these Lodges existed in Scotland.
http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/may03/origins_of_freemasonry.htm


The Jesuit movement was founded by Ignatius de Loyola, a Spanish soldier turned priest, in August 1534. The first Jesuits–Ignatius and six of his students–took vows of poverty and chastity and made plans to work for the conversion of Muslims. If travel to the Holy Land was not possible, they vowed to offer themselves to the pope for apostolic work. Unable to travel to Jerusalem because of the Turkish wars, they went to Rome instead to meet with the pope and request permission to form a new religious order. In September 1540, Pope Paul III approved Ignatius’ outline of the Society of Jesus, and the Jesuit order was born.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/jesuit-order-established

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I don't see that that changes anything with this particular discussion. If we're to believe that the Statue of Liberty is a tribute to paganism, I think that's a non-starter of a theory.

I don't think any statue, even those made by pagans, was a tribute to in-general "paganism", as in non-Abrahamic religions.

I think the Statue of Liberty is a tribute to Libertas, although in a literary rather than religious way.

 

[Albion]

Keep in mind that the Jesuits created Masonary

What???!!! Don't think so!!

We hear you.

There is apparently no end to these fantasies and, for Conspiracy Theorists, it appears that the rule is that the more incredible they are, the more compelling they're supposed to be. On the other hand, one would think that the theorists who present themselves as having studied this "inside information" better than the average person...would know that it's not spelled "Masonary."

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What???!!! Don't think so!!

Wrong choice of words that the Jesuits 'created' masonry... more like subverted. The Masons of old, the unions of stone cutters is not what Freemasonry is today.

 

[Inkfingers]

I think the Statue of Liberty is a tribute to Libertas, although in a literary rather than religious way.

Libera, more likely, who was the goddess/wife of the Roman deity Liber; both of whom being deities of plebian freedom.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

America rebelled against Britain, which was extremely Protestant. Not against the Pope.

That would explain all the anti catholic/papal sentiment in America at the time?

 

[Albion]

Wrong choice of words that the Jesuits 'created' masonry... more like subverted. The Masons of old, the unions of stone cutters is not what Freemasonry is today.

If you only knew--it's neither of those alternatives and never was.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

That would explain all the anti catholic/papal sentiment in America at the time?

America was anti-Catholic because they were mostly Protestant. Same reason Britain was extremely anti-Catholic. America, at least the British colonies, were never under the Pope though, since they were established after Britain went Protestant.

In fact, even the Catholics in the New World (Spain and France, for instance), were not really under the Pope. This much is clear because the Pope opposed slavery (the Catholic Church's opposition to slavery is why it largely died out during the Middle Ages in Europe, replaced by serfdom and other systems, whereas in pagan times slavery was rampant). The Pope issued an official declaration in 1537, Sublimus Deus, which forbid slavery in the New World. It was completely ignored. The Pope, of course, had power in Europe which backed him: the "Holy Roman Empire". The Emperor (who was also the King of Spain) issued the Leyes Nuevas in 1542, which gave some teeth to the Pope's words by making them official force of law. However, they were still largely ignored. Therefore the Emperor sent over a Viceroy to enforce the laws in 1546, one Blasco Vela; unfortunately, when he tried to end slavery by force, the Conquistadors just killed him and paraded his head around on a pike. The Pope at least eventually brought about the abolition of the slave trade however, but that wasn't until the early 1800's, under Pope Pius VII.

So, as you can see, the Pope had little to no power in colonies that belonged to Catholic states. You can be entirely sure he didn't have any power over colonies that belonged to Protestant states.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Libera, more likely, who was the goddess/wife of the Roman deity Liber; both of whom being deities of plebian freedom.

I'm pretty sure it's Libertas. I seriously doubt Roman plebeians were ever idealized, even during the most republican of movements of the Enlightenment.

 

[Inkfingers]

I'm pretty sure it's Libertas. I seriously doubt Roman plebeians were ever idealized, even during the most republican of movements of the Enlightenment.

You think that plebians were not idolised in two countries that rebelled against aristocracy?