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Featured How do, or can we, "obey"...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Moses law was physical and came from an angel. Christ gave 2 commandments that fulfill the law, and how it applies to the spiritual will of the Father. He defined the law and the Prophets with truth and life. The Law and the Prophets didn't have either.

    The old Law saves no one, and those that followed it died.
     
  2. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    Matthew 5
    17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
     
  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Jesus set aside the Law of honoring mother and Father. Same with the Sabbath.

    The fulfillment is the clarity. The Law wasn't perfect, Jesus perfected it's intent through spiritual truth.

    He came to separate flesh from spirit. This separation included fathers and sons, mothers and daughters. He said the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

    Do these verses look the same to you?
    Deut:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Matthew:
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    The entire words are:
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


    Paul clearly maps the law in Romans. Here is what he is saying:
    8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    The law taught what sin was. It's in the mind, as Jesus taught. Not flesh, as the Hebrews believed.

    The rich man told Christ that he had "kept the law since childhood". Yet did he make it to heaven as Jesus said it is hard for rich men to obtain heaven because of their fleshly love. Yet the Gentiles were offered heaven, and they never knew the law.

    Go figure, huh?
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Sincerely, as someone who can appreciate and agree with certain things you say, this particular sentence is contrary to what is in the gospels actually.

    I'll get the passages for you, just a min...

    41Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
    49“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”f 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
    51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart."
    ------------
    23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

    25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

    27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
    ----------
    Notice the nuance. More --
    --------
    1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’a you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

    11He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
    ---------

    So, we see that the sabbath is for man, for us. It's a time of rest. It is not a rigid rule -- we can stop our rest to do good. The Pharisees had failed to get the spirit of the law for the Sabbath. It was a time for rest and to focus on God, but it's not some trivial thing like whether you can bake bread or whether you can do an action of some sort, but the general principle instead -- time to focus on God. So, it can be for instance done over more than one day as needed (for those that have to work on Sunday), and good works of any kind are totally in accord with the Sabbath.
    Instead of the Sabbath canceled, the Sabbath is correctly understood now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  5. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    Where does Jesus set aside the rule of honoring your father and mother?

    Matthew 15
    3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’a and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’b 5But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

    8“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

    but their hearts are far from me.

    9They worship me in vain;

    teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
     
  6. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Jesus was refuting the Jews thinking which was physical (tradition). Jesus was teaching all along that "mother and father" was to be understood as true mother and father which is spirit.

    Luke:
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    One is mammon one is spirit. (hate the one, love the other). If the flesh profits nothing, what do fleshly parents profit?

    Jesus says it more plainly in the Gospel of Thomas:

    <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me.

    When we die to flesh, we become spirit (minded).
    Matthew:
    And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    To love God and your neighbor as yourself is spiritual (mind) not in flesh. As Thomas says, your Father is your only father, and parents become as neighbors. You love their spirits equally. There is only one set of parents, the Father and Holy Spirit. The others died when you died (to the flesh).
     
  7. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Days are physical. Physical things are not holy. Time is not holy. Resting is not holy. Water is not holy. Nor fire. The Holy Spirit is active 24/7. And worship should be the same.

    Paul:
    17 Pray without ceasing.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Seems we agree then. I've noticed your different wording, unlike mine, nevertheless says several things I know are true. Now, it's hard to really understand other people's wording though!
    (notice that people often don't get what other people are saying though! It's the Tower of Babel situation, even when using the same language, English, still the situation Tower of Babel still continues to some extent)
    Hopefully, you will also be able to recognize some things you know are true in the wording I use. I hope my own wording isn't too obscure and hard to get the way that I meant it, and also I hope I say not only one part I know is true as if something else I know is true can be omitted. I want to try to be sure I don't seem to say the equivalent of "A is true (so, therefore you ought to know better than to think B)" when the situation is that both A and B are true.

    Both.
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I'm happy you open your mind.

    These verses from Gospel of Philip helps me see if I apply them:

    Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.

    and

    But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good.

    And importantly:

    Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian") will also be taken from him.

    The Holy Spirit speaks no language. The mind receives the image, vision. Words can be manipulative. People hear the word Archon and hear gnostic. Yet they accept archangel because it's OT. The force is the same, yet the words are different. People see God but not the Father. The Father is greater than God. Gods exist through the Father, just as the Son and Holy Spirit exist through him. And even satan (ignorance) himself is through him but not of him. as the Son, and Holy Spirit are.

    Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

    We are to fulfill as Christ fulfilled. Truth is (spiritual) knowledge. I see the liar and murderer Jesus said was the father of the Jews (John 8:44) as ignorance and error.
     
  10. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    This sounds like Gnosticism.

    "Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

    Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.
    ...
    Christianity asserts that there is one source of Truth and that is the Bible, the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 4:12). It is God’s written revelation to mankind and is never superseded by man’s thoughts, ideas, writings, or visions. The Gnostics, on the other hand, use a variety of early heretical writings known as the Gnostic gospels, a collection of forgeries claiming to be “lost books of the Bible.” Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic “gospels” and the Bible. Even when the so-called Christian Gnostics quote from the Bible, they rewrite verses and parts of verses to harmonize with their philosophy, a practice that is strictly forbidden and warned against by Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18-19).
    ...
    Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, emotional approach to truth which is not new at all. It is very old, going back in some form to the Garden of Eden, where Satan questioned God and the words He spoke and convinced Adam and Eve to reject them and accept a lie. He does the same thing today as he “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). He still calls God and the Bible into question and catches in his web those who are either naïve and scripturally uninformed or who are seeking some personal revelation to make them feel special, unique, and superior to others. Let us follow the Apostle Paul who said to “test everything. Hold on to the good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and this we do by comparing everything to the Word of God, the only Truth." From What is Christian Gnosticism?

    "Salvation to the Gnostics came by knowledge and experience. Those who did not have this knowledge (esoteric truth) were associated with ignorance. They received direct revelation from the Spirit which was more important than the word." What is Gnosticsim

    "Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
    "Matter is evil!" was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 ("And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good") and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation. If matter is evil, then Jesus Christ could not be true God and true man, for Christ is in no way evil. Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion. Some Gnostics, recognizing that the Old Testament taught that God created matter, claimed that the God of the Jews was an evil deity who was distinct from the New Testament God of Jesus Christ. They also proposed belief in many divine beings, known as "aeons," who mediated between man and the ultimate, unreachable God. The lowest of these aeons, the one who had contact with men, was supposed to be Jesus Christ. " From The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers

    I noticed you quoted the Gospel of Thomas, which is not included in the Biblical canon and is believed to be written by Gnostics, as well as the Gospel of Philip, another Gnostic text:

    "The Gospel of Philip is one of the Gnostic Gospels, a text of New Testament apocrypha, dated to around the 3rd century but lost in modern times until an Egyptian man rediscovered it by accident, buried in a cave near Nag Hammadi, in 1945.[1]

    The text is not related to the canonical gospels and is not accepted as canonical by the Christian church. Although it may seem similar to the Gospel of Thomas, scholars are divided as to whether it is a single discourse or a collection of Valentinian sayings.[2][3]
    Sacraments, in particular the sacrament of marriage, are a major theme. As in the other gnostic texts, the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Philip defends the tradition that gives Mary Magdalene special insight into Jesus' teaching" Wikipedia

    On Gospel of Thomas:
    "It is possible that the document originated within a school of early Christians, possibly proto-Gnostics.

    The Coptic-language text, the second of seven contained in what modern-day scholars have designated as Codex II, is composed of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus.[2] Almost half of these sayings resemble those found in the Canonical Gospels, while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition.

    Bishop Eusebius (AD 260/265 – 339/340) included it among a group of books that he believed to be not only spurious, but "the fictions of heretics"." From the wikipedia

    "The Gospel of Thomas is considered to be an example of gnostic literature, a body of religious writing characterized by a rejection of the flesh and the material world in favor of a focus on the spirit. Although gnosticism’s emphasis on the spiritual faintly echoes Christianity’s condemnation of worldliness and carnal living, gnosticism’s rejection of the physical world goes far beyond Christianity’s teachings." Biblegateway.com

    "The Gospel of Thomas likely came from a group of people sometimes called “gnostics.” These folk tried to make teachings about Jesus mesh with certain philosophical principles that grew in popularity especially between the years 100 and 200. There’s a lot we could say about these gnostic ideas and their influence on Christianity, but most other ancient Christians firmly rejected them, considering them an innovation -- a departure from foundational Christian convictions about Jesus. Gnostic ideas tended to conflict with the belief that Jesus had been a real person with a real body, and that he spoke a message rooted in Jewish beliefs about the God revealed in the Hebrew scriptures (the Christian Old Testament).

    A few scholars insist that Thomas -- or parts of it -- was written around the same time as, if not earlier than, the biblical Gospels (which are usually dated between the years 66–100). Maybe you’ve heard of The Jesus Seminar, which made a lot of fuss (and a lot of money) when they published a book called The Five Gospels in 1993. Those scholars tried to give Thomas a place at the table with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in their efforts to determine which gospel sayings may have really come from Jesus’ mouth.

    Remind me again -- why should we care?

    Certainly parts of Thomas reflect well-traveled and perhaps authentic words attributed to Jesus. Yet the book’s odder parts indicate that it was produced later, probably between the years 100 and 140, as gnostic ideas became more influential. Probably gnostic Christians took material from Matthew, Mark, and Luke and altered it, making Jesus more a disseminator of secret mysteries than an inaugurator of God’s kingdom on earth.

    The Gospel of Thomas tells us more about different theological movements vying with one another about a century after Jesus left this earth than it tells us about Jesus and how his earliest followers understood him. That’s interesting stuff, but it also makes for a pretty good reason for not including the book in the Bible.
    ...
    A few of the book’s quotations resemble words we also find in the biblical Gospels. For example, the 54th saying in Thomas is very close to Luke 6:20 (“Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God”). Those sayings may reflect traditions, or remembrances, that many ancient Christians cherished, and that may go back to words Jesus actually spoke.

    On the other hand, many quotations in Thomas are quite strange. Consider the 22nd saying, which reads: “When you make the two into one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and what is above like what is below, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make a pair of eyes in place of one eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the Kingdom].”1

    And you thought Jesus said some confusing stuff in the biblical Gospels.

    As for understanding why the Gospel of Thomas isn’t in the Bible -- read it, and compare it to what you see in the New Testament. It’s a very different kind of book, presenting a quite different Jesus." Why isn't the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible? - Matt Skinner by Matt Skinner - Blog - Enter the Bible

    "The first half of Paul's letter to the Colossians, especially the second chapter, is an effort to combat false teachings that were being promoted to the Church there. This epistle is generally dated to the period of 58-60 CE, and is commonly thought to have been written by Paul while he was imprisoned in Rome. In recent years, many scholars have concluded that the internal evidence within the epistle indicates an early form of Gnosticism was the culprit in Colosse.

    In order to grasp some of the points Paul makes in his letter, a rudimentary understanding of the basic tenets of Gnosticism is required. Gnosticism wasn't a separate religion; rather, it was a philosophy that was blended with components of existing religions. Apparently, elements of Judaism/Christianity were combined with Gnostic beliefs soon after the Church began, creating the heretical teachings that Paul combats in his letter to the Colossians.

    The term "Gnostic" comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means knowledge." What Was the Colossian Heresy? - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

    1 Timothy 6:20-21
    O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.

    Colossians 2:8
    See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

    1 John 4
    1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    ("As I explained in my essay on Gnosticism, one of the tenets of Gnosticism is that Christ had not actually had a physical existence. What the apostles had interacted with, and what had been killed by the Romans, had actually been an illusion. This was necessitated by Gnostic dualism, which posited that matter, or the physical, was evil, and only light was good. Since they believed Christ to have been "good," then logically, the Gnostics were forced to assert that he had not actually had a physical form." Early Christian History / Heresies: Docetism
    "Christ was so divine that he could not have been human, since God lacked a material body, which therefore could not physically suffer. Jesus only appeared to be a flesh-and-blood man; his body was a phantasm." Wikipedia. Is this where your name comes from, Phantasman?)

    Galatians 1
    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

    2 Corinthians 11
    1I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    5I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”a 6I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

    12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    Jude 1:8
    Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

    John 1:14
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

    Romans 1
    1Paul, a servanta of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was descended from Davidb according to the flesh 4and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  11. Phantasman

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    Very good.

    You are seeing truth, but do you understand it?

    Don't let words (from the catholics) confuse you though. Jesus was a heretic. And still is to the Jews.

    Gnostic has become a label like the N word. It's adopted it's own definition by tradition.

    How do you use just Hebrews and Timothy to refute gnosis? No one knows who wrote them, but they use the word "Priest" dozens of times and how holy they be. Not one Gospel or Pauls 10 letters does this. As a matter of fact, the Priest was used as anti-christ in the books. Once established by the early catholics, the "Sadducee's" (destroyed in 70AD) rose once again. As Priests.

    Gnosis is not specialized knowledge, it is spiritual knowledge. It refutes the OT. As Jesus said, the father the Jews followed was the devil. Liar and murderer. He murdered with floods, angels of death and great slaughters. Jesus Father has never murdered. Even when ignorance killed his son.

    The creator god is ignorant. The Father is knowledge (that Jesus brought). I showed you where Philip says:

    Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

    And we know Paul and even Jesus talked of hidden knowledge, and the mystery of the Gospel.

    I was a Nazarene for 25 years, and never knew and didn't understand what was meant by mystery.

    The path truly is narrow, because the wide consumes it.......with ignorance (of truth).

    But that;s just my view, based on faith and hope of what truth is.

    Your mileage may vary.

    I see the "different" Gospel Paul speaks of as the emerging catholic throught. The one that combines the OT to Gospel (after Jesus just fought it), and teaching that Hebrews, was of Paul when it wasn't. I trust the Holy Spirit to be led to truth, and for me, so far it's worked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  12. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    Colossians 2:8
    Galatians 1
    Jude 1:8
    John 1:14
    2 Corinthians 11
    Romans 1
    2 John 1

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Colossians 1
    15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because ofg your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Jude 1:25
    To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 8:4
    Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

    Jeremiah 17:9
    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

    Proverbs 28:26
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered

    Proverbs 14:12-13
    There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

    Proverbs 3:5-6
    Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

    2 John 1
    For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that thou may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. whomsoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

    Nicene Creed
    We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Matthew 5
    17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    1 John 4
    1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    Colossians 2
    8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forcesa of this world rather than on Christ.

    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    2 Timothy 4
    2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    Psalm 119:152
    Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.
     
  13. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You're missing the point.

    The false god is not god but thinks he is. There is one "true" God, the Father. The false god is what the Jews saw and wrote about, the liar, murderer.

    John:
    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Paul:
    For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

    1 John:
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    The true God came to us through the son. At no time before, and Christ says so over and over.

    If you follow the OT, the angel of light appears (to the spiritually ignorant). Tell me one thing that the OT god does to save you. Just one.

    Hebrews and the Pastorals are not authoritative. No one knows who wrote them.

    The Nicene Creed is saying, we follow the God who makes mistakes. The Father of Jesus is perfect and makes NO mistakes.

    Of course they worship the God Almighty, Almighty (capital A) is only used in the OT. The term is NOT used by Jesus or Paul. I showed you the difference in might and mind in how we worship God a few posts back.

    You are fighting to make the Nicene Creed/Bible work. From my view, you can't. And my view only comes from Jesus and Pauls teachings.
     
  14. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    And this false god was the creator?

    Then why does Jesus quote from their Scriptures to combat the Devil, and also elsewhere?

    Matthew 4
    1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempteda by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

    4Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’b

    5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,

    and they will lift you up in their hands,

    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’c

    7Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d

    8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

    10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’e

    11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

    Psalm 25:6
    Remember your mercy, O Lord, and your steadfast love, for they have been from of old.

    Psalm 37:39
    The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.

    Psalm 3:8
    Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people! Selah

    Psalm 62:1
    To the choirmaster: according to Jeduthun. A Psalm of David. For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.

    Jonah 2:9
    But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord!”

    Psalm 25:5
    Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.

    Joel 2:12-13
    “Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning; and rend your hearts and not your garments.” Return to theLord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

    Jeremiah 15:19
    Therefore thus says the Lord: “If you return, I will restore you, and you shall stand before me. If you utter what is precious, and not what is worthless, you shall be as my mouth. They shall turn to you, but you shall not turn to them.

    Psalm 85:1-150:6
    To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of your people; you covered all their sin. Selah You withdrew all your wrath; you turned from your hot anger. Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us!

    Psalm 103:1-22
    Of David. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name! Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.

    Psalm 40:11-12
    As for you, O Lord, you will not restrain your mercy from me; your steadfast love and your faithfulness will ever preserve me! For evils have encompassed me beyond number; my iniquities have overtaken me, and I cannot see; they are more than the hairs of my head; my heart fails me.

    Psalm 86:5
    For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.

    Exodus 34
    The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin

    Micah 7:18
    Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.

    Lamentations 3:22
    The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

    Psalm 145:9
    The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.

    Psalm 103:8
    The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

    Which is why I deliberately limited using them, since you dont believe in them. What about all the other verses I quoted?
    Do you accept Acts?

    Where does it say that?

    Where do Paul and Jesus teach your view?

    What about all these verses from Paul and the Gospels?

    John 1
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

    Romans 1
    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; [even] Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake; 6among whom are ye also called [to be] Jesus Christ's:

    Colossians 1
    15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because ofg your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Galatians 1
    1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father: 5 to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; 7 which is not another [gospel] only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

    9 As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

    2 Corinthians 11
    1I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
    ...
    12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    Colossians 2
    8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forcesa of this world rather than on Christ.

    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    Matthew 5
    17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     
  15. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    The devil in the desert:

    Jesus fasted for 40 days. His "body/flesh" was weak. It was close to death. But Jesus had a spiritual battle with Satan (ignorance). He was being tempted to save the flesh. He was tempted by "the prince of this world", that created and owns this world, that he would be given the world if he would acknowledge the flesh over the spirit (kneel to save it). But Jesus proved that it is the spirit that gives life and not the flesh (or the creator of it).

    John:
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    The battle in the desert was between ignorance and truth. Flesh and spirit.

    And Jesus was showing the power of the Holy Spirit (that he just received) over the power of the flesh and ignorance.
     
  16. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    Agreed, but you still havent explained why, if the OT was written by the false god of ignorance, Jesus was quoting it as truth, and also elsewhere in the Gospels, such as this:

    Mark 12
    “The most important one,”answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.e30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[Exodus 3:6] 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[Deut. 6:4,5] There is no commandment greater than these.”

    Mark 12
    24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Colossians 1
    15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him

    John 1:1-3

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  17. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    Then why are you quoting 1 John?

    But since we are quoting 1 John:

    1 John 4
    1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    1 John 5
    6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

    2 John 1
    7I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what wea have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

    Also, actually:

    "Gnosticism (from the Greek word gnosis, meaning “knowledge”) is the term given to a philosophical movement that flourished between the second century BCE and the fourth century CE. Gnosticism placed the emphasis of life and salvation upon the obtaining of knowledge (Greek gnosis), which was deemed Truth, and removing ignorance or error. The movement itself was very splintered and had multiple schools: Gnostic groups incorporated Platonic and Zoroastrian philosophies, and in the late first century CE, many of these groups incorporated Christian and Jewish thought and practice into their philosophies. For the purposes of our discussion, we will concentrate on “Christian” Gnosticism, or, those Gnostics who believed in Jesus Christ in some form or another.

    This “Christian” Gnosticism is known for its multiple divisions, with some groups practicing certain elements of Christianity, and others forsaking such practices. With all the division in Gnosticism, it is exceedingly difficult to make general statements that will be universally accurate, but it can be said that Gnostics attempted to incorporate many facets of Christian belief into the philosophical beliefs of the Greeks. Many Gnostic groups attempted to remove Christianity from its Judaic foundation, rejecting the God of the Israelites as an arrogant, presumptuous deity, one out of many. It is for this reason that Gnosticism represents the opposite pull from the “Judaizers” on the early church: as the “Judaizers” attempted to make Christianity into a form of “fulfilled Judaism,” so the Gnostics attempted to meld Christianity into Greek philosophy.
    ...
    The philosophy of Gnosticism existed before Christianity, dating back to the last centuries before Christ, as a philosophy incorporating the Greek philosophy of Plato and others along with the Persian philosophy of Zoroaster.
    It did not take long after the Hellenistic world was exposed to Christianity for many groups of Gnostics to begin to incorporate Christ into their philosophy. The first such example may have been in the church of Colossae, to which Paul writes the following inColossians 2:8-9:

    Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ: for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    This text would demonstrate to us that a form of Gnosticism, probably a proto-Gnosticism, had come forth in the church of Colossae, for Paul does give a hint of what this “philosophy” entails: the concept that Christ did not come in the flesh. Many Gnostic groups, following after the dualism of flesh and spirit of Plato, accepted the idea of Christ but not that He came to Earth in the form of a man. They believed that He came in the appearance of a man, what we would call today a hologram, but could not have possibly humiliated Himself to the point of becoming human. We see, however, that Paul affirms this very thing, here and also in other places, especially Philippians 2:5-10."

    From Gnosticism | Early History | A Study of Denominations

    Wikipedia on the Gospel of Philip:
    "The gospel's title appears at the end of the Coptic manuscript in a colophon; the only connection with Philip the Apostle within the text is that he is the only apostle mentioned (at 73,8). The text proper makes no claim to be from Philip, though, similarly, the four New Testament gospels make no explicit claim of authorship. The Gospel of Philip was written between 150 AD and 350 AD, while Philip himself lived in the first century, making it extremely unlikely to be his writing. Most scholars hold a 3rd-century date of composition.[6]"

    Wikipedia on the Gospel of Thomas:
    "The introduction states: "These are the hidden words that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote them down."[5]Didymus (Greek) and Thomas (Aramaic) both mean "twin". Some critical scholars suspect that this reference to the Apostle Thomas is false, and that therefore the true author is unknown."
     
  18. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I am no longer going to debate my stance. If you seek answers from men, then men will lead you.You learn of Thomas, but not Thomas. I am preparing to close my time here, as Jesus says to not spend too much time in one place.

    Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its children, we are the elect of the living father.' If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"

    I can already detect plans in hidden places that wish to remove my words.

    It is time for repose.

    May the Spirit lead you.
     
  19. MonstersvsMartyrs

    MonstersvsMartyrs Member

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    And you as well.
     
  20. mukk_in

    mukk_in Yankees Fan Supporter

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    The Lord Jesus said "If you love Me, you'll obey My commandments." To me obeying God and His word is to love the Lord :).
     
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