• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stryder06

Check the signature
Jan 9, 2009
13,856
519
✟39,339.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
"Take and eat. This is my body." is not symbolic.

Yes it is :cool:

"Drink from this, all of you. For this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many as a remission of sins." is not symbolic.

Uh huh

Neither are the above two quotes from the gospel of saint Matthew advocating sin.

You're right, because Christ isn't being literal.

I will not explain what they teach again because it does not seem to matter how many times incorrect views, such as those stated in your post, are corrected when their advocates simply repeat them after being corrected.

You don't have to. You'll never get east going west, but that's exactly what you expect me to believe. Digesting real flesh, and drinking real blood is nothing more than a pagan practice. Christ would have made no such statement and meant it to be understood literally because it would have been sin.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I was under the impression that he was calling the echuarist a miracle, which in my book is very bogus. But I'll dirgress.
He was, but that's a miracle only if one wants to think of it as a miracle. It's not in the category of Fatima, hosts that turn into babies, and so on which allegedly have been proven scientifically to have been genuine. The host at Communion is always wheat paste upon scientific examination but the faithful are supposed to believe that it's something else.
 
Upvote 0

sunlover1

Beloved, Let us love one another
Nov 10, 2006
26,146
5,348
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
✟102,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Actually, it is not. The topic is the non-Catholic response to claims about such "miracles." Did you not notice that? What's more "Eucharistic miracles" was only one of the kinds of miracles mentioned in the OP.

Look. You don't even belong on this thread, so I'm not going to go along with your game any further.
Who Posted? Total Posts: 163
User Name Posts MoreCoffee 23 Albion 16 Mike to Michael 16 Stryder06 14 sunlover1 11 Rhamiel 10 Lion King 9 InSpiritInTruth 9 Fireinfolding 9 Optimax 6 HisSparkPlug 6 seeingeyes 4 Franny50 3 Rick Otto 3 Eretria90 3 Tigger45 2 prodromos 2 Crandaddy 2 Ecclectic79 2 SayaOtonashi 2 yogosans14 2 GigageiTsula 2 football5680 1 Clairvoyance 1 7spiritfilled 1 LittleLambofJesus 1 EinsteinsGirl 1 netzarim 1 christianmomof3
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I know that one case of transubstantiation in south St. Paul was found to be caused by a wafer that was contaminated with a bacterium species making it appear red and flesh-like.
yes, there are lots of things that happen that are at first thought to be miraculous and latter found out to be natural phenomenon
and there are lots of false prophets
we must always be a bit incredulous of anything claiming to be supernatural
 
Upvote 0

seeingeyes

Newbie
Nov 29, 2011
8,944
809
Backwoods, Ohio
✟35,360.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
yes, there are lots of things that happen that are at first thought to be miraculous and latter found out to be natural phenomenon
and there are lots of false prophets
we must always be a bit incredulous of anything claiming to be supernatural

Gonna have to disagree with that, bro.

The woman at the well would not have been better off had she incredulously assumed that Jesus had been talking with her neighbors about her before their conversation.

The woman with the bleeding would not have been better off had she incredulously assumed that the doctor's prescription had finally worked after a decade or so.

Thomas was not better off by quite reasonably concluding that people don't just crawl out of the grave and call up their friends.

The scribes and elders were not better off assuming that the man born blind who could now see was simply lying.

To say that it is better to disbelieve things until they are proven is simply a function of the cynicism of our age. Christ demanded faith.
 
Upvote 0

sunlover1

Beloved, Let us love one another
Nov 10, 2006
26,146
5,348
Under the Shadow of the Almighty
✟102,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
How did you do that? I sure don't know how to pull up how many folks posted on a certain post.
magic :blush:

Okay lol., just click on the little number of how many
posts in any thread on the main page... and a little
box opens. I copied/pasted the contents.
I was just curious...
 
  • Like
Reactions: HisSparkPlug
Upvote 0

Fireinfolding

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2006
27,285
4,084
The South
✟129,061.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
magic :blush:

Okay lol., just click on the little number of how many
posts in any thread on the main page... and a little
box opens. I copied/pasted the contents.
I was just curious...

Magic!

Speaking of which... :p

Man I learned something on this thread today, thanks sis (I hadn't a clue). Nice to know:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
Gonna have to disagree with that, bro.

The woman at the well would not have been better off had she incredulously assumed that Jesus had been talking with her neighbors about her before their conversation.

The woman with the bleeding would not have been better off had she incredulously assumed that the doctor's prescription had finally worked after a decade or so.

Thomas was not better off by quite reasonably concluding that people don't just crawl out of the grave and call up their friends.

The scribes and elders were not better off assuming that the man born blind who could now see was simply lying.

To say that it is better to disbelieve things until they are proven is simply a function of the cynicism of our age. Christ demanded faith.

However, in each of your cited examples the faith resulted in verifiable miracles. In the case of the doctrine of transubstantiation, this, supposedly happens at every single Catholic mass when the priest intones the magic words and presto bingo the bread turns into flesh dripping blood all over the altar and the wine becomes gooey, red human blood. The reality is, of course, that this does not happen at all and the Catholic Church has had to look long and hard to produce any evidence of this happening and when it does, they declare it a miracle as if this was not the ordinary happening at mass, but a rare and extraordinary supernatural work of God.

Either the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is true and this happens at every single mass or it is false so that if, and when, it might happen it is declared to be an amazing miracle.
 
Upvote 0

christianmomof3

pursuing Christ
Apr 12, 2005
12,798
1,230
61
in Christ
✟33,425.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
one bit of scientific evidence would be the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe
it was printed, miraculously, on the back of a cheap cloak make of cactus cloth that was worn kind of like a cloak or a poncho by native americans at that time
the cheap fabric lasts about 20 or 30 years under the best of conditions
the cloak is now almost 470 years old
now it is incased in glass
but for centuries it was hanging up in the open air, with people touching it transferring oils from their hands, smoke from candles and incense, and just the natural corrosive salts and minerals in desert air should have corroded it to dust 400 years ago
some artists added a golden crown and other embellishments to the original icon
those embellishments have long since faded away leaving no damage to the actual icon
I looked it up.
Neither the fabric ("the support") nor the image (together, "the tilma") has been analyzed using the full range of resources now available to museum conservationists.
The article states that there is clear evidence that the painting has been tampered with - painted over and then paint removed and re-touched in places.
The studies that have been done were long ago and again, I would question who were the "scientists" who did those studies and were they Catholic and therefore biased?

Any other miraculous Catholic things that have been "proven" by science?
I would still like to see evidence.

Like I stated - there is no reason to "explain" these "miracles" because as far as I am aware, they are fakes.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
14,062
7,683
Not in Heaven yet
✟180,327.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
However, in each of your cited examples the faith resulted in verifiable miracles. In the case of the doctrine of transubstantiation, this, supposedly happens at every single Catholic mass when the priest intones the magic words and presto bingo the bread turns into flesh dripping blood all over the altar and the wine becomes gooey, red human blood. The reality is, of course, that this does not happen at all and the Catholic Church has had to look long and hard to produce any evidence of this happening and when it does, they declare it a miracle as if this was not the ordinary happening at mass, but a rare and extraordinary supernatural work of God.

Either the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is true and this happens at every single mass or it is false so that if, and when, it might happen it is declared to be an amazing miracle.

Excellent points, and ones I hadn't even thought of.

Admittedly I'm much more Lutheran and Orthodox in my beliefs, but it's the supposed miracles that keep me intrigued with Catholicism. The Eucharist turning into actual, physical blood and heart tissue; Angles, Saints, and Mary appearing to Catholics, performing miracles, making promises; a statue of the infant Jesus performing miracles.

SOMETHING is happening. But what?
 
Upvote 0

christianmomof3

pursuing Christ
Apr 12, 2005
12,798
1,230
61
in Christ
✟33,425.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Excellent points, and ones I hadn't even thought of.

Admittedly I'm much more Lutheran and Orthodox in my beliefs, but it's the supposed miracles that keep me intrigued with Catholicism. The Eucharist turning into actual, physical blood and heart tissue; Angles, Saints, and Mary appearing to Catholics, performing miracles, making promises; a statue of the infant Jesus performing miracles.

SOMETHING is happening. But what?
Proof? Where is the verifiable scientific evidence of any of that?
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Excellent points, and ones I hadn't even thought of.

Admittedly I'm much more Lutheran and Orthodox in my beliefs, but it's the supposed miracles that keep me intrigued with Catholicism. The Eucharist turning into actual, physical blood and heart tissue; Angles, Saints, and Mary appearing to Catholics, performing miracles, making promises; a statue of the infant Jesus performing miracles.

SOMETHING is happening. But what?

Now that's just plain creepy.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
14,062
7,683
Not in Heaven yet
✟180,327.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
Some samples of the bread and wine have been scientifically tested and verified to be actual blood and heart tissue. Google it, because I'm not Catholic and I don't know Miracle of "such and such" off the top of my head. There's really ancient examples as well.

The Infant of Prague or Praque or whatever is the alleged statue of a child Jesus that performs miracles. I don't know.

Too many Marian apparitions to name them, but Fatima being most famous.
 
Upvote 0

Tigger45

Mt 9:13..."I desire mercy, not sacrifice"...
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,782
13,206
E. Eden
✟1,313,646.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
I'm telling you my friend and Rhamiel alluded to it in an earlier post. God being sovereign can bless us when, where, how and why He wants but I've noticed that He tends to bless us through our {faith and reverence of Him}. I never understood in the scripture story of the woman with blood issues for twelve years when it said that power came over her. Luke 8:43-48 I always wondered why the word was power and not Spirit. Now I know. Reaching out and touching the robe of the Eastern Orthodox priest as he held the Eucharist as the procession walked through the sanctuary I felt power flow through my arm and nested in my chest with a warm glow. Personally I think even Catholics are second to the EO when it comes to the reverence they have and practice of the partaking of the Eucharist. Once while at a Catholic Monastery I found a pamphlet on meditatively praying of repentance. Which caused me to have an experience much like the Apostle Paul of being taken up to the third heaven! Once at a night service at a Calvary Chapel church a traveling singing evangelist sang over me a word of knowledge that he could not of known about me. In fact the only person there who knew me was my buddy that invited me to come to the service. The Spirit of the Lord was so thick your soul could just drink it in. Mike to Micheal I go to a Lutheran church also but because I've been reading the RC catechism I went to a local early Catholic Mass so then I could attend our Lutheran service after. The funny thing is these two churches use the same liturgical calendar so they have the same scripture readings and at least in this case my Lutheran pastor gave a better sermon. I'm sure this isn't the case in every situation but it was nice to know.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
However, in each of your cited examples the faith resulted in verifiable miracles. In the case of the doctrine of transubstantiation, this, supposedly happens at every single Catholic mass when the priest intones the magic words and presto bingo the bread turns into flesh dripping blood all over the altar and the wine becomes gooey, red human blood.

Let us be clear on what the words are that you've so sarcastically called magic words.
And so, Father, we bring You these gifts. We ask You to make them holy by the power of Your Spirit, that they may become the Body + and Blood of Your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at Whose command we celebrate this Eucharist.
And so that none will be deceived by the highly offensive characterisation of the nature of the Eucharist given in your words quoted above let us also be clear what the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharistic presence of the body and blood of Christ.
The Lord Jesus, on the night before he suffered on the cross, shared one last meal with his disciples. During this meal our Savior instituted the sacrament of his Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the ages and to entrust to the Church his Spouse a memorial of his death and resurrection. As the Gospel of Matthew tells us:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins." (Mt 26:26-28; cf. Mk 14:22-24, Lk 22:17-20, 1 Cor 11:23-25)

Recalling these words of Jesus, the Catholic Church professes that, in the celebration of the Eucharist, bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and the instrumentality of the priest. Jesus said: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world. . . . For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink" (Jn 6:51-55). The whole Christ is truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity, under the appearances of bread and wine—the glorified Christ who rose from the dead after dying for our sins. This is what the Church means when she speaks of the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. This presence of Christ in the Eucharist is called "real" not to exclude other types of his presence as if they could not be understood as real (cf. Catechism, no. 1374). The risen Christ is present to his Church in many ways, but most especially through the sacrament of his Body and Blood.

What does it mean that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist under the appearances of bread and wine? How does this happen? The presence of the risen Christ in the Eucharist is an inexhaustible mystery that the Church can never fully explain in words. We must remember that the triune God is the creator of all that exists and has the power to do more than we can possibly imagine. As St. Ambrose said: "If the word of the Lord Jesus is so powerful as to bring into existence things which were not, then a fortiori those things which already exist can be changed into something else" ( De Sacramentis, IV, 5-16). God created the world in order to share his life with persons who are not God. This great plan of salvation reveals a wisdom that surpasses our understanding. But we are not left in ignorance: for out of his love for us, God reveals his truth to us in ways that we can understand through the gift of faith and the grace of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. We are thus enabled to understand at least in some measure what would otherwise remain unknown to us, though we can never completely comprehend the mystery of God.

As successors of the Apostles and teachers of the Church, the bishops have the duty to hand on what God has revealed to us and to encourage all members of the Church to deepen their understanding of the mystery and gift of the Eucharist. In order to foster such a deepening of faith, we have prepared this text to respond to fifteen questions that commonly arise with regard to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. We offer this text to pastors and religious educators to assist them in their teaching responsibilities. We recognize that some of these questions involve rather complex theological ideas. It is our hope, however, that study and discussion of the text will aid many of the Catholic faithful in our country to enrich their understanding of this mystery of the faith. -- United Sates Conference of Catholic Bishops: The Real Presence Of Jesus Christ In The Sacrament Of The Eucharist: Basic Questions And Answers
The reality is, of course, that this does not happen at all and the Catholic Church has had to look long and hard to produce any evidence of this happening and when it does, they declare it a miracle as if this was not the ordinary happening at mass, but a rare and extraordinary supernatural work of God.

The reality is that mockery such as is present in the quotes from your post given above is reprehensible on every level and ought to be retracted out of shame for having so seriously misrepresented the teaching of Christ and of the Catholic Church.
Either the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is true and this happens at every single mass or it is false so that if, and when, it might happen it is declared to be an amazing miracle.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.