How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[HisSparkPlug]

I'm asking for legitimate explanations to something that is bothering me.

Hi Mike to Michael,
Since you say you are sincere in your line of questioning, I'm giving you a link which will take you to an in depth explanation of what really occurred during Fatima. Please don't think that I dislike Catholics. I love the Catholic people, I just do not like any institution which withholds it's people from a direct line to communication with their God and a personal relationship with Him.
I believe you will find this article of great interest: Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God? <-- link

 

[Crandaddy]

what I have heard from most is either

1 the Catholic Church is demonic
2 the Catholic Church is filled with poor, uneducated and superstitious people who get worked up into mass hallucinations or are easily taken in by conmen

I don't accept either of these explanations.

or the most charitable and least frequent explanation I hear from Protestants
3 "God knows that you guys go in for that kinda stuff so that is why the members of your church are given visions of Mary"

I don't accept this one either, on the grounds that placating a disposition to "go in for that kinda stuff" seems an extremely unlikely motivation for God to act in such ways.

this would be from mainline Protestants who hold the "branch theory" of all the different, and contradictory, denominations being of equal authority, authenticity, and dignity

Who holds a "branch theory" like that?

 

[prodromos]

I just do not like any institution which withholds it's people from a direct line to communication with their God and a personal relationship with Him.

That is a gross caricature of the Catholic Church.

 

[Optimax]

Isn't what the bible says enough to adequately define these graces? If you want a truly biblical answer then cut & paste is the way to go.

This thread is about miracles and visions; both of which are self-explanatory.

Your sidestepping.

You said they were in the manifestation spoken of.

Yet you cannot even describe the gift of wisdom.

If ya don't know what the gifts actually are.

You cant say it is evidence the manifestations are of God and not of demons.

 

[Crandaddy]

Star wars is a trap for the unwary. Many think that there is a "dark side" and a "force" but they have long since abandoned any semblance of Christianity. I guess the imagery and symbols that people think of most is a clue about their religious orientation.

Oh, come on, MC! Lighten up! They're just movies (and very good ones, I might say).

 

[yogosans14]

If Protestants believe Mary Is the mother of God,then why is it impossible for her to perform a miracle,when the Apostles performed miracles in Jesus's name.I am Catholic and believe there is a place for Mary in Christian worship as long as our Lord comes first.As for your question,I do not believe that the evidence of these apparitions can be disputed when there are tens of thousands of witnesses and scientific evidence.

NO. The Lord comes first and last, no one before or after him. Mary holds no place in my worship of the triune God.

 

[Rick Otto]

That is a gross caricature of the Catholic Church.

It accurately representsd my experiences groing up within it in two different parishes.

 

[GigageiTsula]

NO. The Lord comes first and last, no one before or after him. Mary holds no place in my worship of the triune God.

Amen!!!

 

[sunlover1]

That is a gross caricature of the Catholic Church.

It accurately representsd my experiences groing up within it in two different parishes.

Same here prodromos.
Have you been catholic?
I was for years.

 

[christianmomof3]

I have not seen any of that "scientific evidence".
Can you please post some links to it?
Were the scientists Catholic?
I don't think it is demonic.
I just think it is fake.

 

[Lion King]

I agree that demons try to trick people
but can a demon tell people that they should pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins?

Of course. A lie is always most potent when mixed with a little truth, after all. It's no wonder satan always disguises himself as the angel of light.

Satan: "Pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, but do such and such for me. God wants it that way.."

also, the idea that three small children in would know that Russia would spread its errors to other countries
the Russian Revolution happened in 1917, same year as the Fatima visions
but Russia did not become the "Soviet Union" until 1922 when Russia annexed Ukraine and other local Republics, thus "spreading it's errors to other countries"
but that could still be a lucky guess by children who are either mentally unbalanced or looking for attention (I assume the prayer that was told to them shows that the vision is not of demonic origins)
there were other predictions that came true

"If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world." - The supposed words of Mary at Fatima.


Has Russia been converted to Roman Catholicism yet?

 

[Rhamiel]

Of course. A lie is always most potent when mixed with a little truth, after all. It's no wonder satan always disguises himself as the angel of light.

Satan: "Pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, but do such and such for me. God wants it that way.."



"If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world." - The supposed words of Mary at Fatima.


Has Russia been converted to Roman Catholicism yet?

mixing truth with lies is a demonic trick
but claiming Christ is Lord and that we should pray to Him does not sound like something a demon can do
it is a good work, and demons are cut off from the grace of God and can not preform good works

if her requests were heeded Russia would be converted
I argue that they were not heeded and our current cultural situation is due
or we could see the fall of Communism and resurgence of the Eastern Orthodox Church as the beginning of her prophecy
as always, I pray for the union of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, but I do not delude myself into thinking we are close to such a reunion
but as with prophecies in the Bible, it sometimes takes centuries before their true meaning is clear
remember that the Jews were expecting the Messiah to be a military leader and instead they got a meek preacher

 

[Rick Otto]

I have not seen any of that "scientific evidence".
Can you please post some links to it?
Were the scientists Catholic?
I don't think it is demonic.
I just think it is fake.

I like your response, & second the motion.
You're concern for what motivates the scientists is appropriate in my opinion. I recently heard the term "commercial science". It helps me understand things like how factory cigarettes only have to 42% tobacco by law & can contain burning agents, formaldihyde, & numerous other carcinogens. How Monsanto can... nevermind.
But I have read opinions on how the 'dancing sun' the children saw (was it at Lourdes?) could've been an "alien spacecraft" which a significant faction of believers in those, believe to be "demonic". Those guys blur that distinction into a seperate species of "serpent" or reptillian origen.
At any rate, it is fascinating.

 

[Rhamiel]

one bit of scientific evidence would be the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe
it was printed, miraculously, on the back of a cheap cloak make of cactus cloth that was worn kind of like a cloak or a poncho by native americans at that time
the cheap fabric lasts about 20 or 30 years under the best of conditions
the cloak is now almost 470 years old
now it is incased in glass
but for centuries it was hanging up in the open air, with people touching it transferring oils from their hands, smoke from candles and incense, and just the natural corrosive salts and minerals in desert air should have corroded it to dust 400 years ago
some artists added a golden crown and other embellishments to the original icon
those embellishments have long since faded away leaving no damage to the actual icon

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I believe you will find this article of great interest: Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God? <-- link

Yeah that article proves the language these children used, which they supposedly received by revelation is in line with Catholic theology and doctrine and is not in line with the word of God.

That should be enough to know and realize it was not of God. Also these children partook in self affliction after receiving a message from the woman, they were told to do penence and acts of reparation to save other sinners.

Here's a qoute from a wiki article...

"In these, the woman asked the children to do penance and Acts of Reparation as well as making personal sacrifices to save sinners. The children subsequently wore tight cords around their waists to cause themselves pain, performed self-flagellation using stinging nettles, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance."

Self affliction, flagellation, or self mutilation is not normal behavior.

 

[prodromos]

It accurately representsd my experiences groing up within it in two different parishes.

Same here prodromos.

I stand corrected (or perhaps kneel would be more appropriate ). I'm sorry to hear those were your experiences.

Have you been catholic?
I was for years.

No, but in my debates with Catholics I have familiarised myself with the teaching of the Catholic Church. I'm sorry that their practice hasn't jived with their teaching in your cases (and others I must assume).

 

[sunlover1]

I stand corrected (or perhaps kneel would be more appropriate ). I'm sorry to hear those were your experiences.

No, but in my debates with Catholics I have familiarised myself with the teaching of the Catholic Church. I'm sorry that their practice hasn't jived with their teaching in your cases (and others I must assume).

Hey, I have good memories of the rcc, in that there were some sweet nuns who liked to show love and talk about the Holy family...
I learned a great song..
And yes, did some kneeling! LOL
I didn't get it till I was reflecting here on my younger years.

No bad feelings, no.

 

[sunlover1]

I stand corrected (or perhaps kneel would be more appropriate ). I'm sorry to hear those were your experiences.

No, but in my debates with Catholics I have familiarised myself with the teaching of the Catholic Church. I'm sorry that their practice hasn't jived with their teaching in your cases (and others I must assume).

You can take a poll.
What I hate about the rcc..
JK.

That thread on evangelical church is
sickening enough lol

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ok.

So.

If as you say then, you would have to know what they are before you could recognize them.

Tell me in your own word, not cut and paste.

What is the word of wisdom?

How would you recognize it?

Isn't what the bible says enough to adequately define these graces? If you want a truly biblical answer then cut & paste is the way to go.

This thread is about miracles and visions; both of which are self-explanatory.

Your sidestepping.

You said they were in the manifestation spoken of.

Yet you cannot even describe the gift of wisdom.

If ya don't know what the gifts actually are.

You cant say it is evidence the manifestations are of God and not of demons.

Just pointing out how your demand for no cut & paste means you want opinions.

Opinions are not worth much in a debate.

So, have you decided you want something more substantial than opinions?

By the way, there's no "gift of wisdom" in 1 Corinthians 12:8. It's a word of wisdom is it not?

And that taunt "If ya don't know what the gifts actually are" is children in the playground talk.

Besides, if one wants to test the spirits to see if they are of God then one ought to be thinking about spoken words since those are the spirits under discussion in 1 John 4:1.

Test the words spoken to see if they belong to God because many false prophets have gone out into the world. And what's the test? The words that belong to God acknowledge that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. And that is precisely the message of the Eucharistic miracles and the Marian visions.

 

[HisSparkPlug]

But I have read opinions on how the 'dancing sun' the children saw (was it at Lourdes?) could've been an "alien spacecraft" which a significant faction of believers in those, believe to be "demonic". Those guys blur that distinction into a seperate species of "serpent" or reptillian origen.
At any rate, it is fascinating.

I've heard this about the space-ship and it makes more sense... it sounds very much like Joseph Smith's experience (founder of Mormonism) when he allegedly 'saw' something come down out of the sky that was as bright as the sun. I do not believe satan can make the sun move around, so he did something else - the spacecraft trick makes sense, although I believe it was a demonic illusion, they can manifest in so many ways.