How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Stryder06]

Are you sure its not to the law and to the toastimony?

Yeah. I don't think Isaiah was making toast just yet

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah. I don't think Isaiah was making toast just yet

I was just seeing if you were listening Stryde. I believe they were just baking bread, not making toast of it yet.

I know God appeared in a burning bush, but I haven't heard of Him (or another) appearing on a piece of breakfast toast.

That was a risky move, just before that person had their morning coffee and just about to slap some jam on that thing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ok.

So.

If as you say then, you would have to know what they are before you could recognize them.

Tell me in your own word, not cut and paste.

What is the word of wisdom?

How would you recognize it?

Isn't what the bible says enough to adequately define these graces? If you want a truly biblical answer then cut & paste is the way to go.

This thread is about miracles and visions; both of which are self-explanatory.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

How does the Host having blood appear on it have a perfectly "natural" explanation.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

And the sarcasm in this thread is astounding. I'm asking for legitimate explanations to something that is bothering me. Demons? Ok, that's uncharitable, but it's something. Mockery and toast miracles? Well just get the hell out of here with that because it's not providing anything to my questions or this thread.

 

[Albion]

How does the Host having blood appear on it have a perfectly "natural" explanation.

Hallucinations are explainable by medical science.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Hallucinations are explainable by medical science.

It's been scientifically verified in some cases.

 

[Albion]

It's been scientifically verified in some cases.

That an elevated host has bled drops of blood? I don't think so.

 

[Lion King]

It's been scientifically verified in some cases.

I'm sure it has.

 

[Albion]

I'm sure it has.

Be sure to get back to us when you find that verification.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's been scientifically verified in some cases.

That an elevated host has bled drops of blood? I don't think so.

I'm sure it has.

Neither Albion's thinking nor Lion King's assurance is relevant to Mike to Michael's question. Personal assurance and personal scepticism are not sound arguments in a debate.

 

[sunlover1]

And the sarcasm in this thread is astounding. I'm asking for legitimate explanations to something that is bothering me. Demons? Ok, that's uncharitable, but it's something.

Uncharitable??
It's dangerous if it's not true!
But why uncharitable? What does love have to do with truth in
this case? I LOVE catholic people, but if I think that this thing
is demonic it would be less loving for me to pretend it's not?
Nuuu.. don't think so.
Besides, isn't demonic oppression everywhere?
Even in protestant churches??

So, to look at it from an unbiased POV:
are they hoax, genuine or demonic?
dunno.
Could God make statues weep?
SURE,
Would He?
Can't see WHY that would happen.
And it's ONLY happening in catholicism.
Which makes it seem much more doubtful.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Uncharitable??
It's dangerous if it's not true!
But why uncharitable? What does love have to do with truth in
this case? I LOVE catholic people, but if I think that this thing
is demonic it would be less loving for me to pretend it's not?
Nuuu.. don't think so.
Besides, isn't demonic oppression everywhere?
Even in protestant churches??

So, to look at it from an unbiased POV:
are they hoax, genuine or demonic?
dunno.
Could God make statues weep?
SURE,
Would He?
Can't see WHY that would happen.
And it's ONLY happening in catholicism.
Which makes it seem much more doubtful.

Much more doubtful? Perhaps. Or much more assuring that Catholicism is the True Church. I'm trying to decided which is true.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Uncharitable??
...

Accusations of demonic influence in the matter of Eucharistic miracles and Marian visions need to be tested and assessed. If the accusation is little more than a knee-jerk rejection of Eucharistic miracles and Marian visions then it ought to be dismissed.

 

[7spiritfilled]

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

It is best explained for exactly what it is.

A demonic manifestation that draws attention away from Jesus toward something false.

Hey, that was what I was going to say. Spot on!

 

[sunlover1]

Much more doubtful? Perhaps. Or much more assuring that Catholicism is the True Church. I'm trying to decided which is true.

I agree.
Sorry, I meant to include that option as well.

Accusations of demonic influence in the matter of Eucharistic miracles and Marian visions need to be tested and assessed. If the accusation is little more than a knee-jerk rejection of Eucharistic miracles and Marian visions then it ought to be dismissed.

Well suggesting that the enemy is responsible for something God is
doing is a very grave matter to be sure!

 

[Tigger45]

Much more doubtful? Perhaps. Or much more assuring that Catholicism is the True Church. I'm trying to decided which is true.

I would like to point out that the OP is a very new Christian. By his profile he has only been walking with the Lord since January of this year and this topic is very serious to him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would like to point out that the OP is a very new Christian. By his profile he has only been walking with the Lord since January of this year and this topic is very serious to him.

That is an important fact. Sarcasm and point scoring accusations against the Catholic Church have no place in serious discussion and debate.

 

[Rhamiel]

False signs & wonders of the enemy to lead people astray.. This is why it's so important to test the spirits. If just one person who witnessed Fatima had called that apparition out in the name of Jesus, it would have vanished. We must always test the spirits - both human and spiritual alike. The Word of God tells us that any spirit which cannot state of it's own accord that Jesus is God who came in the flesh & died for remission of all sin, then they are not servants of the real Jesus (they serve 'another' Jesus).

I think you are partially right

I do not think that a demonic apparition would tell people that Jesus is God
so the fact that these visions of Mary tell people to repent of their sins, to pray to Jesus, reminding people that Jesus is fully God and fully man, these are signs that the vision is from God

the local priest in Fatima, along with the parents of the children, tried very hard to discourage them, they were afraid that the children were just making it up for attention, the city officials were afraid that people would view their town as a superstitious backwater village instead of a "modern European town" at one point town officials even put them in prison thinking that it would "scare them straight" and they would stop making up stories, a particularly cruel prison official even said that if they did not confess to making up the stories they would be boiled alive, maybe that was said as a cruel joke, but the children thought he was serious and were prepared to die for Jesus
it is not like people just jumped in and said "oh well the kids saw Mary, lets fall down on our knees"
this was viewed with skepticism and investigated rigorously
the "vision" at Fatima told the children to say this prayer "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls into heaven, especially those of us in most need of thy mercy"

I agree that demons try to trick people
but can a demon tell people that they should pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins?
also, the idea that three small children in would know that Russia would spread its errors to other countries
the Russian Revolution happened in 1917, same year as the Fatima visions
but Russia did not become the "Soviet Union" until 1922 when Russia annexed Ukraine and other local Republics, thus "spreading it's errors to other countries"
but that could still be a lucky guess by children who are either mentally unbalanced or looking for attention (I assume the prayer that was told to them shows that the vision is not of demonic origins)
there were other predictions that came true

 

[Rhamiel]

Much more doubtful? Perhaps. Or much more assuring that Catholicism is the True Church. I'm trying to decided which is true.

to be fair
I do not think that even if the visions are true, it necessarily means that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

and this is coming from someone who does think that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

it is possible that God views all denominations that preach the Gospel, look to Jesus for Salvation and believe in the Bible are part of His "invisible Church of all believers"
Catholics get these visions to encourage them to be good Catholics
and Lutherans are encouraged to be good Lutherans
and Methodists...
well you get the picture
the idea is that Catholics get these type of visions more because we respond so well to them
if a Methodist saw a vision of Our Lady they would probably try and get a lobotomy
So God gives to each group what they need to be encouraged to be faithful to Him

now... I do not believe this is the case
but it is an option to consider