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How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

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Epiphoskei

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I feel like Protestants wouldn't care about Mary's perpetual virginity if it wasn't such good ammunition in the fight to assert that Catholics don't really care about the Bible, since the Bible so strongly suggests Mary had other children.

So whether or not she was a perpetual virgin, I think it's really just about bashing Catholicism.

It has more to do with the RCC (and to a lesser extent EO) tendency to value virginity as an unqualified virtue as opposed to a situational virtue - fine when not married, but it doesn't make you purer or more virtuous to not marry. We were warned that in the end times false teachers would forbid marriage. In the earliest days of Church history, we called them Gnostics. When the church shut down that heresy, people with inappropriate ascetic tendencies had to find some other outlet for the sinful self-denial which makes a show of outward religion, hence the hermits, the stylites, and later, monks.
 
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sunlover1

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I feel like Protestants wouldn't care about Mary's perpetual virginity if it wasn't such good ammunition in the fight to assert that Catholics don't really care about the Bible, since the Bible so strongly suggests Mary had other children.
:scratch:
Ammunition to try to tear down some faith group?
What kind of people do you perceive us to be?
Besides, it's common knowledge how each group handles Scripture.
For those seekers/lurkers, I always try to offer truth as I understand it...
And that's how I understand it.

So whether or not she was a perpetual virgin, I think it's really just about bashing Catholicism.
You're not alone.
That's the third time I've seen the
accusation in the past 2 days.
 
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FireDragon76

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So whether or not she was a perpetual virgin, I think it's really just about bashing Catholicism.

Much of the energy behind the belief is a culturally WASP-ish attack on celibacy and anti-clericalism. Mary's perpetual virginity becomes an symbol for all that is bad about Roman Catholicism, the exotic "Other". So Protestants end up buying into ridiculous, and sometimes even sub-Christian, assumptions in order to justify that.
 
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Epiphoskei

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The Greek "until" doesn't imply what the English word does. The Septuagint uses the word to refer to actions that aren't performed until death. Are we to assume people performed those actions after death?

As I wrote earlier, I am aware of the undefined temporal aspect implied by the Greek "until," but technically the English "until" also holds that same aspect and is used in that manner in logic. The reason we colloquially take "until" to signify the end of continuing action is that when one conspicuously avoids making an outright statement by means of using vague, noncommittal, or in this case aspectually aorist language, we recognize that to be a form of tacit denial.

I doubt any Greek scholar has actually published on the question of whether Greeks had differing notions of what constitutes tacit denial, but examples of people saying they didn't perform an action until death wouldn't enter into consideration in that study. In English just as easily as in Greek I may say something like "I will never betray my wife until death" without implying I will after death, being that there's no expectation in normative communication for me to comment on my earthly relations past my death. This communicative norm actually leads to the idiom wherein until + a reference to death, destruction, or end signifies perpetuity or indefiniteness, which I expect is an idiom that exists in Greek as readily as in English, and probably explains your Septuagint references more plausibly than the assumption that the Greeks were conspicuous logicians would.

If, however, I said "I will not kill and eat any pigs before Wednesday," there's an obvious tacit implication here that I'm not a vegetarian and I do not keep kosher, even though on a technicality it's not correct to assume that. Am I to understand you're suggesting that for lexical reasons a Greek wouldn't be able to read between the lines?
 
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prodromos

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When the church shut down that heresy, people with inappropriate ascetic tendencies had to find some other outlet for the sinful self-denial which makes a show of outward religion, hence the hermits, the stylites, and later, monks.
You say that the ones who tried to struggle apart from the world, often going deep into the desert to be away from people, were actually making a show of outward religion? How do you make such a bizarre connection?
 
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Epiphoskei

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A man who seeks holiness by asceticism, treating the flesh more harshly than is necessary for exercising Christian self control, is indulging in false spirituality by abasing his flesh in ways scripture repeatedly says are vain and of no profit. His religion is outward because it is in the outward man, not inward because it is not in his spirit.

"Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

Now some men on an individual basis may have needed to discipline themselves more harshly and fast more regularly because of a weakness of faith (though none but those specifically gifted with celibacy is to avoid marriage) but the moment the church at large accepted things which are at best signs if immaturity as signs of greater piety or identifications of a holy man, the church adopted an ascetic ethos little different from what would have happened if the church had been infiltrated by several sects of full blown Gnosticism.
 
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prodromos

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A man who seeks holiness by asceticism, treating the flesh more harshly than is necessary for exercising Christian self control, is indulging in false spirituality by abasing his flesh in ways scripture repeatedly says are vain and of no profit. His religion is outward because it is in the outward man, not inward because it is not in his spirit.
I'm guessing you've never been to an Orthodox monastery or convent.
 
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FireDragon76

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Now some men on an individual basis may have needed to discipline themselves more harshly and fast more regularly because of a weakness of faith (though none but those specifically gifted with celibacy is to avoid marriage) but the moment the church at large accepted things which are at best signs of immaturity ...

You seem confused, most Christians throughout history have not been celibate, including Catholics and Orthodox. The Orthodox and Catholics also recognize that celibacy is a calling that not everyone is given. In my mind it is prideful for a person to demand that they be recognized as another's equal. It is a sign of spiritual maturity to respect those that have sacrificed for the Kingdom, and to recognize ones own spiritual poverty and to be grateful for the grace God has given us. The holy men and women you criticize pray, fast, and mortify their flesh for the love of God and salvation of the world, and your words show the spiritual impoverishment and foolishness of your theology.
 
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Rick Otto

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Your easy equation of external asceticism with internal spirituality "shows the spiritual impovershhment & foolishness of your theology".
Do you like being spoken to that way?

It's a judgement call in each individual case of vcourse, but the generalization holds true if only by degree in each case. Pride wounded reflexively lashes out. Religiosity makes us look spiritualy fat. Celibacy wasn't being obsessed on & ascetics weren't being condemned, asceticism was just being kept in perspective.
Stay Calm & Analyze.
 
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Rev Randy

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Dude, testing all things and holding fast to that which is true = look at scripture through the lens of tradition. Except we define tradition differently than you.
Dude, the Catholic Church decided the canon of Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit. The part you're forgetting is that the Catholic Church gave you your Scripture.

The analogy works fine. If the teacher gets it wrong, it's because he's not listening to the Holy Spirit. Men do get it wrong a lot, but when the Holy Spirit instructs those He duly ordained, they cannot teach error.

Got mine at the bookstore. Forgive me.;)
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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It has more to do with the RCC (and to a lesser extent EO) tendency to value virginity as an unqualified virtue as opposed to a situational virtue - fine when not married, but it doesn't make you purer or more virtuous to not marry. We were warned that in the end times false teachers would forbid marriage. In the earliest days of Church history, we called them Gnostics. When the church shut down that heresy, people with inappropriate ascetic tendencies had to find some other outlet for the sinful self-denial which makes a show of outward religion, hence the hermits, the stylites, and later, monks.

That may be a fair reading of history more generally, and I don't want to deny it outright. However, documents like the Shepherd of Hermas demonstrate that some form of asceticism was part of mainstream, non-Gnostic Christianity very early on, and I'd equally hate assign the whole ascetic impulse to Gnosticism. This is especially true in Egypt, where early monastic communities in the trans-Alexandrian desert existed simultaneously with Sethian Gnostic communities in the Upper Nile Valley. I see no reason to look for the origins of the former in the dissolution of the latter.

:scratch:
Ammunition to try to tear down some faith group?
What kind of people do you perceive us to be?
Besides, it's common knowledge how each group handles Scripture.
For those seekers/lurkers, I always try to offer truth as I understand it...
And that's how I understand it.

You're not alone.
That's the third time I've seen the
accusation in the past 2 days.

I don't want to impugn your motives personally. I just don't understand why anybody would care so much. Actually, I don't understand why anybody would care so much on either side of the issue.

As I wrote earlier, I am aware of the undefined temporal aspect implied by the Greek "until," but technically the English "until" also holds that same aspect and is used in that manner in logic. The reason we colloquially take "until" to signify the end of continuing action is that when one conspicuously avoids making an outright statement by means of using vague, noncommittal, or in this case aspectually aorist language, we recognize that to be a form of tacit denial.

I doubt any Greek scholar has actually published on the question of whether Greeks had differing notions of what constitutes tacit denial, but examples of people saying they didn't perform an action until death wouldn't enter into consideration in that study. In English just as easily as in Greek I may say something like "I will never betray my wife until death" without implying I will after death, being that there's no expectation in normative communication for me to comment on my earthly relations past my death. This communicative norm actually leads to the idiom wherein until + a reference to death, destruction, or end signifies perpetuity or indefiniteness, which I expect is an idiom that exists in Greek as readily as in English, and probably explains your Septuagint references more plausibly than the assumption that the Greeks were conspicuous logicians would.

If, however, I said "I will not kill and eat any pigs before Wednesday," there's an obvious tacit implication here that I'm not a vegetarian and I do not keep kosher, even though on a technicality it's not correct to assume that. Am I to understand you're suggesting that for lexical reasons a Greek wouldn't be able to read between the lines?

Based on the output of Greek lexical studies annually, I'm sure somebody has done a peer-reviewed study on it. Maybe I'll look for it on JSTOR or Alta at some point.

In the meantime, based on my own reading of the Greek εως and various usages in the Septuagint and New Testament (Deut 34:6, 2 Sam 6:23, Psalm 72:7, Matt 11:32, 28:20), the word in koine seems to have comparatively less implication of subsequent change than the English. That's not to say it can't be used that way, or doesn't sometimes imply subsequent change, but it does so less often.

And honestly, if you want to argue that scripture implies Mary had other children, there is far firmer ground in Mark 6:3(and parallels).

I'm guessing you've never been to an Orthodox monastery or convent.

Almost certainly not. I don't remember flogging or starving myself at Mount Athos.
 
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Tzaousios

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When the church shut down that heresy, people with inappropriate ascetic tendencies had to find some other outlet for the sinful self-denial which makes a show of outward religion, hence the hermits, the stylites, and later, monks.

From what basis do you judge what these figures did as "sinful" and "a show of outward religion?"
 
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squint

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Got mine at the bookstore. Forgive me.;)

If I recall the scriptures have been around at least since Abraham if Paul was correct.

You have to love the logic attempt though. IF a statue bleeds, THEN RCCism must be true because RCCism has the market cornered on Mary.

s
 
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prodromos

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I'm guessing you were awed by one.
Several actually, though "awed" is not the term I would use. When I lived in Greece, the highlight of the week or fortnight was visiting two particular monasteries in Halkidiki. The monks and nuns there were so full of love and the liturgies there were other worldly. We would always leave with our spiritual batteries fully charged. They saw Christ in everyone, and we found the same in monasteries all over Greece.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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A man who seeks holiness by asceticism, treating the flesh more harshly than is necessary for exercising Christian self control, is indulging in false spirituality by abasing his flesh in ways scripture repeatedly says are vain and of no profit. His religion is outward because it is in the outward man, not inward because it is not in his spirit.

"Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

Now some men on an individual basis may have needed to discipline themselves more harshly and fast more regularly because of a weakness of faith (though none but those specifically gifted with celibacy is to avoid marriage) but the moment the church at large accepted things which are at best signs if immaturity as signs of greater piety or identifications of a holy man, the church adopted an ascetic ethos little different from what would have happened if the church had been infiltrated by several sects of full blown Gnosticism.

Unfortunately in this case you've just got your history dead wrong. The overall tendency in the history of Christian monasticism has been toward tempering extreme asceticism through community rules. There are exceptions (revival movements within Benedictine monasticism such as the Carthusians, and later the Trappists, reinvigorated harsh interpretations of the Rule; and Spiritualist Franciscans made a virtue out of extreme asceticism until they were suppressed in 1296), but in general cenobitic monasticism has arisen to curtail the extreme renunciative impulse. Such was the case with Rules of Basil of Caesarea, the annonymous "Master," Augustine of Hippo, and Benedict of Nursia.

Non-cenobitic rules for consecrated church workers like the Dominicans and Jesuits are also relatively unadorned. So are the non-consecrated cenobitic rules, like those of the Beguines and Beghards, and that of the Brethren of the Common Life.

The only ongoing church order where you really have a case is with the Franciscans, but as I said, even there, the Spiritualist wing of the Franciscans was surpressed.

Moreover, there has always been a recognition among monastics- especially in the Augustinian and Benedictine traditions- that the consecrated life is not for the strong, but for the weak. That strand of the tradition was certainly not prevalent in the days before the Reformation and I totally agree with you that it should be the prevailing attitude, but it is absolutely present in the various Rules. As for the Rules of various church-worker movements- the Dominican missionaries, the Franciscan caregivers, the Jesuit "papal footsoliders"- the idea there is that people on the front lines of the fight against sin, death, and the devil need stricter discipline.
 
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prodromos

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Almost certainly not. I don't remember flogging or starving myself at Mount Athos.
I've never come across anyone starving or flogging themselves on Mt Athos, and I've had the privilege of visiting a number of times.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Several actually, though "awed" is not the term I would use. When I lived in Greece, the highlight of the week or fortnight was visiting two particular monasteries in Halkidiki. The monks and nuns there were so full of love and the liturgies there were other worldly. We would always leave with our spiritual batteries fully charged. They saw Christ in everyone, and we found the same in monasteries all over Greece.

Absolutely wonderful place. Which monasteries did you visit? I'd love to get back there, as well as eventually get to Meteora.
 
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MrLuther

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I do not think your statement is correct; those who believe that Mary is ever virgin do so on the basis of Apostolic Tradition and no matter what you may make of the meaning of the phrase "Apostolic Tradition" the truth is that in the Church during the centuries when she was persecuted we have testimony from church fathers that Mary was indeed ever virgin.

For example, Protoevangelium of James tells is that saint Anne (Mary's mother) vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord. The same source tells us that saint Joseph (Mary's husband) was elderly when they married.Such stories do not come out of nowhere; there were, I conjecture, stories of a similar kind in circulation among Christians, and possibly among heretics too, at that time (the early second century AD).

Thus the evidence upon which the Church relies for the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is found both in scripture and in the early church.

The Protoevangelium of James isn't considered Scripture, even by the RCC. It's pseudopigraphical, and Origin called it dubious and of recent appearance. It speaks of temple virgins in the Temple in Jerusalem - a practice there isn't the slightest bit of evidence for, and which doesn't make an ounce of sense.
Its similarity with the Vestal Virgins in the Roman temples, though, is striking.
Hey, are you going to say now that Pseudo-Matthew is also Scripture? Full of dragons, and panthers, and newborn Jesus telling the palm trees to bow to give Mary shade?
Or is that somehow conveniently different?

There isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest that Mary and Joseph alone, of all the couples in Israel, didn't have sex. The concept is ridiculous.
 
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Stryder06

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If folk want to believe that Mary and Joseph enjoyed sexual relations throughout their married years they will do so but they will be doing so on the basis of a guess, a conjecture, a presumption and not because any passage of scripture ever actually says that they did.

They're doing so because the bible gives no indication of anything else. You can say what you want but Matt 1:25 were it speaking of any other individual would be understood to mean that once the baby was born husband and wife were intimate. No it doesn't say it specifically, but it doesn't have to. As it's been pointed out, the bible makes no mention of anyone ever using the restroom, so does that mean they didn't? For crying out loud they were just as human as the rest of us.

If I say "And I didn't eat until dinner was ready" yes of course you could say "well that doesn't mean he ate after dinner was ready" but more than likely I'm telling you "I ate once dinner was ready." Those who say they didn't have sex are doing so based on their bias that requires them to take the tradition they've been taught over any other explanation that goes contrary to it.
 
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