How do I "stimulate", my Evolution? I can be stimulated to embrace the theory, but what next?

Jamdoc · Jan 10, 2022

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
It's not that simple. What about the vast majority of creatures that are non-sexual? What do you count as 'breeding' - what if they are behaviourally incompatible, i.e. reproductively compatible in other ways but refuse to mate? what if they are anatomically incompatible, i.e. reproductively compatible in other ways but their genitals are incompatible? what if all the offspring are naturally aborted? what if most of the offspring are naturally aborted? what if they all die before reaching sexual maturity? what if most die before reaching sexual maturity? what if they're all infertile? what if most are fertile? etc., etc.

In the case of separating 1 species from another it's does it reproduce and can its offspring reproduce with each other?
When you create a mule you're not creating a new species, because the mules cannot reproduce among each other.
I think Ligers can back cross (breed with tiger or a lion), but not really reproduce among themselves.

Either way we've kinda gone on a tangent here. Where I think the line for the biblical term "kind" is drawn is at the family taxonomic level rather than the species or even genus. Species have hybridized showing that by biblical definitions, they are the same "kind" reproducing after their own "kind".
and that's the important term, that's the term that can make science and the bible butt heads, and I think unnecessarily because it is based on an ASSUMPTION that kind = species.

Ring Species (definition)
Ring Species (brief)
A Closer Look at a Classic Ring Species (detailed).

I'll look into this

Are you suggesting sterile hybrids are species despite being unable to breed?

I misused the term species there, I shouldn't have said "hybrid species" but rather just hybrid.
Because no, a sterile hybrid is not a species.

If you agree that evolution of one species can create a new species, what's to stop that process continuing until there are two or more branches leading to groups of species where each group has characteristics that distinguish it from the others? IOW, if you admit speciation can occur, what is the limiting factor that prevents families of species developing? How is that prevented?

Single point mutations are not adequate, even stacking on top of each other over time, to result in the Chromosomal differences necessary. It is an inadequate mechanism.

And if they correspond, but are unable to pair up? or if they can pair up but meiosis fails? or... etc.? It's a complicated business, and there are a lot of ways it can fail, even within a species.

I'm not seeing your point. My point is demonstrating that hybridization shows that speciation from a family does occur, and that biblically they are the same kind therefore, and that families of animals having radically different Chromosome pairs numbers of chromosomes, and configuration of Chromosomes shows enough separation to show another mechanism in play rather than just single point mutations stacking up which has always been the driving mechanism of abiogenesis and macroevolution as an origin of life.

There is still God involved in the process.

Hans Blaster · Jan 10, 2022

Jamdoc said:
I'm not seeing your point. My point is demonstrating that hybridization shows that speciation from a family does occur, and that biblically they are the same kind therefore, and that families of animals having radically different Chromosome pairs numbers of chromosomes, and configuration of Chromosomes shows enough separation to show another mechanism in play rather than just single point mutations stacking up which has always been the driving mechanism of abiogenesis and macroevolution as an origin of life.

There is still God involved in the process.

There are too many mutations in this paragraph to understand it.

Are we (46 chromosomes) more closely related to dolphins (44 chromosomes) than rhesus monkeys (42 chromosomes)? Should we be in the dolphin family or with the potatoes (48 chromosomes) like the chimps (also 48 chromosomes)?

You say potato, I say chimpanzee. Chimp -- Spud. Let's call the whole thing off.

[Han shot Greedo with a spud gun!]

Jamdoc · Jan 10, 2022

Hans Blaster said:
There are too many mutations in this paragraph to understand it.

Are we (46 chromosomes) more closely related to dolphins (44 chromosomes) than rhesus monkeys (42 chromosomes)? Should we be in the dolphin family or with the potatoes (48 chromosomes) like the chimps (also 48 chromosomes)?

You say potato, I say chimpanzee. Chimp -- Spud. Let's call the whole thing off.

[Han shot Greedo with a spud gun!]

Chromosomal differences is more than just number of pairs.

Hans Blaster · Jan 10, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Chromosomal differences is more than just number of pairs.

Then why did you say that "families of animals having radically different Chromosome pairs numbers"? Make up your mind. (Or learn what you are talking about.)

Subduction Zone · Jan 10, 2022

Hans Blaster said:
Then why did you say that "families of animals having radically different Chromosome pairs numbers"? Make up your mind. (Or learn what you are talking about.)

It appears that he misused the term. When one does not understand terminology that is easy to do. And when it comes to vast differences in the number of chromosome pairs one should check out the equines. How horses can interbreed (producing sterile offspring) with Zebras. I have no idea. Horses have 32 Chromosome pairs (64 chromosomes), Zebras have as few as 16:

Equus hybrids

Jamdoc · Jan 10, 2022

Hans Blaster said:
Then why did you say that "families of animals having radically different Chromosome pairs numbers"? Make up your mind. (Or learn what you are talking about.)

It's pretty rare that any animal with significantly different Chromosome numbers can hybridize.
But Chromosome number is not by itself the defining thing

Hans Blaster · Jan 10, 2022

Jamdoc said:
It's pretty rare that any animal with significantly different Chromosome numbers can hybridize.
But Chromosome number is not by itself the defining thing

Hey, I'm not the one who made that claim about families having radically different chromosome numbers. You were.

Gene2memE · Jan 10, 2022

SkyWriting said:
God designed animals to evolve and so they survive changes in the environment,
just as God has planned them.

Given that fact that better than 99% of all species that have inhabited the planet have gone extinct, and there have been multiple mass extinction events, this statement would seem to imply that God is a very poor designer.

SkyWriting · Jan 10, 2022

Gene2memE said:
Given that fact that better than 99% of all species that have inhabited the planet have gone extinct, and there have been multiple mass extinction events, this statement would seem to imply that God is a very poor designer.

My grandparents are dead as well as their parents. My success based on their DNA and efforts was not poor design or wasted effort. I have a wonkey foot that looks just as I remember my Grandmothers foot looked. Still, it works fine.

Subduction Zone · Jan 10, 2022

SkyWriting said:
My grandparents are dead as well as their parents. My success based on their DNA and efforts was not poor design or wasted effort. I have a wonkey foot that looks just as I remember my Grandmothers foot looked. Still, it works fine.

Evolution works on "good enough". There is no excuse for "good enough" in ID. Observations such as the existence of the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve make perfect sense when it comes to evolution. New species have to build on preexisting structures. It makes no sense when it comes to ID.

SkyWriting · Jan 10, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
Evolution works on "good enough". There is no excuse for "good enough" in ID. Observations such as the existence of the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve make perfect sense when it comes to evolution. New species have to build on preexisting structures. It makes no sense when it comes to ID.

My wonkey foot makes perfect sense to me though you have no clue why it does.
Your lack of insight has no effect on my knowledge.

Subduction Zone · Jan 10, 2022

SkyWriting said:
My wonkey foot makes perfect sense to me though you have no clue why it does.

If it makes sense to you you can explain it.

Or you could always try to learn how we know that life is the product of evolution. It is never too late to learn.

Jamdoc · Jan 11, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
If it makes sense to you you can explain it.

Or you could always try to learn how we know that life is the product of evolution. It is never too late to learn.

Learn what?
That life is totally meaningless?
Because that is what ultimately is the goal of the whole train of thought. That life is just an accident, that it means nothing, that morality is relative that sin is not judged, and you should just eat and drink and do whatever feels good to you at the time because you die and stop existing.
How pointless.
Your world view gives you no reason not to murder, rape, steal, lie, or hey, it doesn't even give you a reason not to kill yourself, because ultimately, it doesn't matter, if you cease existing now or later, it's all the same, you won't know the difference.

That is the end result of that entire line of thinking.
Hedonism, nihilism, and self destruction.

and worse off.. it is what that ideology seeks to spread to others, share in their death and destruction.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It all starts with the denial of God as creator, it progresses through hedonism, sin, and ultimately death, and a desire to bring others with them.

and why do you ultimately do it?
To justify sin, to not fear judgement over sin.

Subduction Zone · Jan 11, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Learn what?
That life is totally meaningless?
Because that is what ultimately is the goal of the whole train of thought. That life is just an accident, that it means nothing, that morality is relative that sin is not judged, and you should just eat and drink and do whatever feels good to you at the time because you die and stop existing.
How pointless.
Your world view gives you no reason not to murder, rape, steal, lie, or hey, it doesn't even give you a reason not to kill yourself, because ultimately, it doesn't matter, if you cease existing now or later, it's all the same, you won't know the difference.

That is the end result of that entire line of thinking.
Hedonism, nihilism, and self destruction.

Sorry, none of those come from evolution. They may come from your misinterpretation of evolution. Evolution has nothing to say about the meaning of life. It is completely neutral on the topic. You might was well make the same claim about gravity.

"Gravity makes life meaningless".

Does that look silly to you? So are the claims that you are making.

and worse off.. it is what that ideology seeks to spread to others, share in their death and destruction.

Romans 1

It all starts with the denial of God as creator, it progresses through hedonism, sin, and ultimately death, and a desire to bring others with them.

and why do you ultimately do it?
To justify sin, to not fear judgement over sin.

Nope, there is no denial. There are countless Christians that accept the fact of evolution. If your God exists evolution only shows how he made the Earth. It does not deny God's existence.

Jamdoc · Jan 11, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
Sorry, none of those come from evolution. They may come from your misinterpretation of evolution. Evolution has nothing to say about the meaning of life. It is completely neutral on the topic. You might was well make the same claim about gravity.

"Gravity makes life meaningless".

Does that look silly to you? So are the claims that you are making.

Nope, there is no denial. There are countless Christians that accept the fact of evolution. If your God exists evolution only shows how he made the Earth. It does not deny God's existence.

You're not talking about a theistic evolution though, you're talking about an abiogenesis naturalist origin of life.
When you say "life is the product of evolution" that is what you are getting at.
Not just talking about evolution as a biological process.
But evolution as the origin of life itself.
and that leads to nihilism.

Hans Blaster · Jan 11, 2022

Jamdoc said:
You're not talking about a theistic evolution though, you're talking about an abiogenesis naturalist origin of life.

No. We are talking about evolution, not abiogenesis or the orgin of life. Just the transformation of lifeforms over time.

Jamdoc said:
When you say "life is the product of evolution" that is what you are getting at.

The living things we see today are formed through evolution by natural selection. If it bothers you to think life originated by natural means you don't have to believe that to accept evolution since the origin of life *precedes* evolution. Different things abiogenesis and evolution are.

Jamdoc said:
Not just talking about evolution as a biological process.
But evolution as the origin of life itself.
and that leads to nihilism.

Nope, not in the least. Evolution isn't about the origin of life and it doesn't cause nihilism. Perhaps you could have that problem if you were so invested in the non-scientific ideas about the origin of species and of life that realizing you didn't believe in the religion anymore might make you nihilistic or even the thought of doing so might bring that fear, but it certainly doesn't have to be that way.

[BTW: Paul was wrong. Failing to see divine creation in the things around me didn't make me murderous or turn me gay.]

Jamdoc · Jan 11, 2022

Hans Blaster said:
No. We are talking about evolution, not abiogenesis or the orgin of life. Just the transformation of lifeforms over time.

The living things we see today are formed through evolution by natural selection. If it bothers you to think life originated by natural means you don't have to believe that to accept evolution since the origin of life *precedes* evolution. Different things abiogenesis and evolution are.

Nope, not in the least. Evolution isn't about the origin of life and it doesn't cause nihilism. Perhaps you could have that problem if you were so invested in the non-scientific ideas about the origin of species and of life that realizing you didn't believe in the religion anymore might make you nihilistic or even the thought of doing so might bring that fear, but it certainly doesn't have to be that way.

[BTW: Paul was wrong. Failing to see divine creation in the things around me didn't make me murderous or turn me gay.]

When he said "life is the product of evolution" he wasn't talking about just a biological process but, specifically origin of life.

and while maybe not murder, you still sin, and you would rather ignore the deadly weight of that sin, relying on the belief that you will never be judged for it.

Hans Blaster · Jan 11, 2022

Jamdoc said:
When he said "life is the product of evolution" he wasn't talking about just a biological process but, specifically origin of life.

and while maybe not murder, you still sin, and you would rather ignore the deadly weight of that sin, relying on the belief that you will never be judged for it.

I gave up sin 20 years ago. This topic doesn't need the hateful rhetoric of Romans 1.

Jamdoc · Jan 11, 2022

Hans Blaster said:
I gave up sin 20 years ago. This topic doesn't need the hateful rhetoric of Romans 1.

Nobody gives up on sin.
Self righteousness does not work.

Hans Blaster · Jan 11, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Nobody gives up on sin.
Self righteousness does not work.

No god, no sin. Don't believe in either.

How do I "stimulate", my Evolution? I can be stimulated to embrace the theory, but what next?

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