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How do I ACTUALLY be saved?

ladodgers6

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You could not upset me so no apology sought not needed.

Well, IF , yes IF you cause little ones to stumble, I am grieved sorely, deeply as is Jesus.... is that the same as upset ?

I am only sharing what I believe, and why I believe it. I never denied repentance or good works of the believers. But these are 'FRUITS' & 'SIGNS of our Salvation. Does the fruit come before the living vine? From where do these fruits grow? It is the root that give life to these fruits, or the other way around?

Christ is the living vine. And from this living vine we live, and grow fruit. Apart from Christ we cannot do anything. Christ is the cause and source of OUR Salvation! Who he is, and what He has accomplished is the SOLE cause of our Salvation! Our repentance was purchased by His blood. Even our Faith is a gift from God! Its all of Grace! Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

If you locate your salvation in your repentance or response to the Gospel, rather than who Christ is, and what He has done on the Cross! Then you have no Gospel at all. I have been down this road of a subjective legalistic approach to salvation. It leads to despair, no peace, no assurance, no promise, no love. Why? Because everyday I am checking to see if I am good enough to be saved. That my repentance and works now become my Cross and Salvation. This is no good news for the ungodly!


Abraham Justified by Faith
Romans 4

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

His faith is COUNTED as righteousness. What does this mean to you after reading these passages? Why does God justify the ungodly? Why not justify the somewhat good people who are trying to be good? Or the ones who appear godly? Or those who go to church, or those who pray to God twice a day, or those who give tithes to the poor? Are not these actions forms of repentance? What is missing in a person that prays in such a way, that he thanks God they are not like the evil doers?

Hope this helps???

God Bless!
 
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ladodgers6

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Read your own posts, see how long (unnecessarily) they are ?
I did not analyze at all.
I simply posted a few Scriptures/ Scripture ideas....

====================================
If you trust the TORAH to provide your righteousness or save you,
then you have failed already because you cannot meet its standard.
The TORAH demands nothing from us, as it is simply God's Instructions on HOW TO LIVE RIGHT. It cannot provide salvation.

====================================
TORAH does not care if you fulfill the requirements of TORAH at all,
with or without a single blemish --- that sounds like idiosyncrasy of man's doctrine(s) ?

====================================
Yahweh Gave Torah on purpose, and it is useful as Yahweh intended.
It leads to Christ, as Yahweh's Word says.....
(and lets us know how and when and how much we are sinners needing salvation)

Sorry that I have long posts. But I rather explain what I believe and why I believe as much as possible, than to say to little.

Are you reading my posts or are you confusing me with another poster? When did I say that the Law is the way for sinners to be saved? I said that since we are already convicted law breakers in the first Adam. The curse of the Law is condemning sinners because of the knowledge sin, and sin brings condemnation. And I agree with you 100% that the preaching of the Law to sinners drives them to what saves; namely Christ Jesus!

Am I missing something here. Because I am confused on why you posted this to me?
 
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justbyfaith

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If God didn't justify the ungodly, then no one would be justified. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

However, in justifying them He declares them righteous, calling those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17). It is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18). Therefore in declaring the ungodly righteous He also makes them righteous (Romans 5:19) in the practical sense (1 John 3:7); He fills them with righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Otherwise in calling them righteous it would be a lie. For the opposite of ungodly is righteous.

In Proverbs 17:15 it is written that those who justify the wicked (i.e. declare them righteous) are an abomination to the LORD. Therefore wicked is not the same as ungodly (if you compare to Romans 4:5); and/or in declaring the ungodly righteous He immediately takes away their ungodliness/sin (1 John 3:5) so that they are ungodly no more. Otherwise the LORD is an abomination in His own sight, to His own self. And I don't think that that is the case.
 
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ladodgers6

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If God didn't justify the ungodly, then no one would be justified. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

However, in justifying them he declares them righteous, calling those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17). It is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18). Therefore in declaring the ungodly righteous He also makes them righteous (Romans 5:19) in the practical sense (1 John 3:7); He fills them with righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Otherwise in calling them righteous it would be a lie. For the opposite of ungodly is righteous.

In Proverbs 17:15 it is written that those who justify the wicked (i.e. declare them righteous) are an abomination to the LORD. Therefore wicked is not the same as ungodly (if you compare to Romans 4:5); and/or in declaring the ungodly righteous He immediately takes away their ungodliness/sin (1 John 3:5) so that they are ungodly no more. Otherwise the LORD is an abomination in His own sight, to His own self. And I don't think that that is the case.

So let me clarify and understand your position. Repentance is part of the cause or ground (basis) of a sinner's Justification and Salvation. Spirt-wrought sanctity is necessary as a consequence of our justification. And believers maintain imparted righteousness, obedience, works, that are all necessary for continuing in the state of justification. This is what I have so far. Is this correct, so far?
 
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justbyfaith

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So let me clarify and understand your position. Repentance is part of the cause or ground (basis) of a sinner's Justification and Salvation. Spirit-wrought sanctity is necessary as a consequence of our justification. And believers maintain imparted righteousness, obedience, works, that are all necessary for continuing in the state of justification. This is what I have so far. Is this correct, so far?

Yes, I think that would have to be what I have been saying (for the most part, with the exceptions that I will define below).

Spirit-wrought sanctity is not necessary as a consequence of justification. I am not saying it is necessary; I am saying that it is forthright. It is the ensuing result of real justification. While, if you look at everything I have said so far, a person may have righteousness imputed to them without entire sanctification being present in their lives.

And also, the imparted righteousness, obedience, and works, are not something that we maintain, but they are maintained by the Lord within us as we continue to maintain faith in Jesus. They result out of the living faith that I am saved by, but they do not save me; it is the living faith that saves me. If I do not have the imparted righteousness, obedience, and works, it is a sign that I don't have a living and saving faith. However it is not a sure sign. For a man is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5-6); and yet a living faith in Jesus Christ will always produce good works if given the opportunity (James 1:21-2:26, Ezekiel 36:25-27). So in the case, for example, of a death bed conversion, the works that result out of a living and saving faith will have to wait to be wrought until after the person has gone on to be with the Lord. They will not be evident in this life in such a case.

These things are true because of the fact that if anyone has a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5); which love cannot be in word or in tongue only, but can only be in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). It is not a situation where they think that they have to do this or that in order to maintain their salvation; the motivation for what they do lies in the fact that they have love for the people they are doing the works for. Therefore love is not maintained by good works; but good works are maintained by love.

I would say also that righteousness and obedience (walking in the Spirit rather than the flesh) is something that we must continue in (I would say that maintain does not describe this as exactly as I would like) if we are going to maintain spiritual life (not necessarily justification, except by proxy) (Romans 8:12-13); and if a man cannot be justified who is spiritually dead, then if I walk according to the flesh it may result in losing justification (if I ever truly had it in the first place). Not every sin is unto death (1 John 5:16); sin must be finished in me, in order to produce death (James 1:15). So I may commit an act of walking according to the flesh and it may not necessarily result in my losing my spiritual life and therefore my justification; but if I begin to walk consistently according to the flesh, it may be a sign that I was never justified in the first place.
 
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justbyfaith

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I would say also however as a warning that a single act of walking according to the flesh has the very likely result of enslaving a man to sin (John 8:31-36) so that one act may very well result in a man beginning to walk consistently according to the flesh; so that as a result he may become spiritually dead and therefore lose his justification.
 
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ladodgers6

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Yes, I think that would have to be what I have been saying (for the most part, with the exceptions that I will define below).

Spirit-wrought sanctity is not necessary as a consequence of justification. I am not saying it is necessary; I am saying that it is forthright. It is the ensuing result of real justification. While, if you look at everything I have said so far, a person may have righteousness imputed to them without entire sanctification being present in their lives.

And also, the imparted righteousness, obedience, and works, are not something that we maintain, but they are maintained by the Lord within us as we continue to maintain faith in Jesus. They result out of the living faith that I am saved by, but they do not save me; it is the living faith that saves me. If I do not have the imparted righteousness, obedience, and works, it is a sign that I don't have a living and saving faith. However it is not a sure sign. For a man is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5-6); and yet a living faith in Jesus Christ will always produce good works if given the opportunity (James 1:21-2:26, Ezekiel 36:25-27). So in the case, for example, of a death bed conversion, the works that result out of a living and saving faith will have to wait to be wrought until after the person has gone on to be with the Lord. They will not be evident in this life in such a case.

These things are true because of the fact that if anyone has a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5); which love cannot be in word or in tongue only, but can only be in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). It is not a situation where they think that they have to do this or that in order to maintain their salvation; the motivation for what they do lies in the fact that they have love for the people they are doing the works for. Therefore love is not maintained by good works; but good works are maintained by love.

I would say also that righteousness and obedience (walking in the Spirit rather than the flesh) is something that we must continue in (I would say that maintain does not describe this as exactly as I would like) if we are going to maintain spiritual life (not necessarily justification, except by proxy) (Romans 8:12-13); and if a man cannot be justified who is spiritually dead, then if I walk according to the flesh it may result in losing justification (if I ever truly had it in the first place). Not every sin is unto death (1 John 5:16); sin must be finished in me, in order to produce death (James 1:15). So I may commit an act of walking according to the flesh and it may not necessarily result in my losing my spiritual life and therefore my justification; but if I begin to walk consistently according to the flesh, it may be a sign that I was never justified in the first place.
Thanks friend for sharing. And I respect that you are respectful, because we are discussing God's word, with Love not Hate. Before I reply to your post here. Have you read that article yet?
 
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ladodgers6

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(@ladodgers6) So let me clarify and understand your position. Repentance is part of the cause or ground (basis) of a sinner's Justification and Salvation. Spirt-wrought sanctity is necessary as a consequence of our justification. And believers maintain imparted righteousness, obedience, works, that are all necessary for continuing in the state of justification. This is what I have so far. Is this correct, so far?

Sorry, I am confused. I asked you if the above comments represents your position. You said yes, but you revised some things.
 
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justbyfaith

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Thanks friend for sharing. And I respect that you are respectful, because we are discussing God's word, with Love not Hate. Before I reply to your post here. Have you read that article yet?
Did you post a link to the article? I missed it. Please post the link again below; or post the post # where you posted the link.
 
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justbyfaith

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Sorry, I am confused. I asked you if the above comments represents your position. You said yes, but you revised some things.
The answer was yes except for the exceptions that I mentioned. The "revisions" are a clarification of my views, because what you asked me as to whether it was what I believed didn't represent my view perfectly.

So, in order not to be confused, go based on my clarification, not the original statements of yours wherein you asked me whether I agreed with them.
 
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ladodgers6

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ladodgers6

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The answer was yes except for the exceptions that I mentioned. The "revisions" are a clarification of my views, because what you asked me as to whether it was what I believed didn't represent my view perfectly.

So, in order not to be confused, go based on my clarification, not the original statements of yours wherein you asked me whether I agreed with them.
Okay koO! I will re-read it, and get back to you.
 
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justbyfaith

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Sure no problem. Its a bit long, but well worth of the read. Let me know what you think about it?

http://www.downtowncornerstone.org/2013/03/7636/

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

Yes, I read the article when you posted it in two parts a few pages ago (Now did you say there was also an article on the book of Ephesians?)

My response was the following:

I'm not sure what these messages have to do with James 1:15.

Also, my response to those messages:

In one of Chuck and Nancy Missler's books, he talks about how Jeremiah 17:9 becomes Luke 8:15 through Ezekiel 36:25-27.

God takes out of us (Ezekiel 36:25-27) a wicked and deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) and replaces it with an honest and good heart (Luke 8:15).

The fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, goodness (Galatians 5:22-23).

Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith (Acts of the Apostles 11:22-24).

When Jesus said, "No one is good but God," it was before His blood was shed (which cleanses us from all sin, 1 John 1:7, and sanctifies, Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and before the Holy Spirit was given (who imparts the fruit of goodness, Galatians 5:22-23).

That being said, in my own life I do not trust in my own heart, I consider that it might still be deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). See also Proverbs 28:26.

I would add to that response something I came across more recently in the word, that Paul told the Romans that he was convinced that they themselves were full of goodness, filled with all knowledge; and able also to admonish one another (Romans 15:14).
 
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ladodgers6

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Yes, I read the article when you posted it in two parts a few pages ago (Now did you say there was also an article on the book of Ephesians?)

My response was the following:

I would add to that response something I came across more recently in the word, that Paul told the Romans that he was convinced that they themselves were full of goodness, filled with all knowledge; and able also to admonish one another (Romans 15:14).

Thanks for reading the article, your thoughts on it? I get the feeling that you believe that I deny the New birth and sanctification of the believer. On the contrary, God giving us NEW Hearts and New Minds is his promise that He will do it for us. Why? Because we cannot do it ourselves.

Paul says in Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Again I understand walking in the Spirit. But if you confuse this sanctification of the believer with Justification of the sinner, you distort and pervert the Gospel. Again sanctification flows from our justification in Christ Alone! This is explain in that Article I provided.

Hope this helps???

God Bless!
 
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DaveM

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I don't want to do good works my entire life just to be confident that God would be pleased with me

My understanding is you must Love God with all your heart might and soul and how do we know if we Love God like that Jesus tells us we will keep his commandments. When you become born again God changes your heart from the inside and you want to do good work to please the most important God of your life.

The reason your doing good works is to please God because you want to, not because you have to.

You will think of God in most of your thouhgts

People will see you are a changed person

You will no longer be a practicing sinner who lives in sin this may take some time

If you living in the sins of the flesh you are not going to heaven according to this scripture

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

this is a great video IMO
 
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justbyfaith

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Thanks for reading the article, your thoughts on it? I get the feeling that you believe that I deny the New birth and sanctification of the believer. On the contrary, God giving us NEW Hearts and New Minds is his promise that He will do it for us. Why? Because we cannot do it ourselves.

Paul says in Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Again I understand walking in the Spirit. But if you confuse this sanctification of the believer with Justification of the sinner, you distort and pervert the Gospel. Again sanctification flows from our justification in Christ Alone! This is explain in that Article I provided.

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

My response was primarily concerning Martin Luther's Statement that I copy and paste below:

“The gospel is that you are more wicked than you dared to believe and more loved than you dared to hope – at the same time” – Luther

I would say to this that if you are in Christ you are no longer more wicked than you dared to believe. Jeremiah 17:9 is concerning your past, the transition into your present and future of Luke 8:15 being through Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Matthew 13:49-50, God will sever the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore Luther was mistaken in making the statement above...if you define "loved" in his above statement to mean "accepted" which is how I believe many would perceive that.
 
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ladodgers6

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My response was primarily concerning Martin Luther's Statement that I copy and paste below:

“The gospel is that you are more wicked than you dared to believe and more loved than you dared to hope – at the same time” – Luther

I would say to this that if you are in Christ you are no longer more wicked than you dared to believe. Jeremiah 17:9 is concerning your past, the transition into your present and future of Luke 8:15 being through Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Matthew 13:49-50, God will sever the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore Luther was mistaken in making the statement above...if you define "loved" in his above statement to mean "accepted" which is how I believe many would perceive that.
Thanks for your comments. And I do understand your position on this. I'm not home, but I can clarify what Luther meant through Scripture Alone, when I get home.
 
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ladodgers6

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My response was primarily concerning Martin Luther's Statement that I copy and paste below:

“The gospel is that you are more wicked than you dared to believe and more loved than you dared to hope – at the same time” – Luther

I would say to this that if you are in Christ you are no longer more wicked than you dared to believe. Jeremiah 17:9 is concerning your past, the transition into your present and future of Luke 8:15 being through Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Matthew 13:49-50, God will sever the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore Luther was mistaken in making the statement above...if you define "loved" in his above statement to mean "accepted" which is how I believe many would perceive that.

Thanks for your comments, and I will gladly share with you, on what Luther meant. Luther and the Reformation taught 'simul justus et peccator,' simultaneously righteous and sinful. So I will provide a provide R.C. Sproul concise teaching on this:


What Does “Simul Justus et Peccator” Mean?
from Nathan W. Bingham Jan 05, 2016 Category: Ligonier Resources

In this excerpt from his teaching series, “Luther and the Reformation,” Dr. R.C. Sproul shares the very heart of the gospel as he explains Martin Luther’s latin phrase, “Simul Justus et Peccator.”

Transcript
Perhaps the formula that Luther used that is most famous and most telling at this point is his formula simul justus et peccator. And if any formula summarizes and captures the essence of the Reformation view, it is this little formula. Simul is the word from which we get the English word simultaneously. Or, it means ‘at the same time.’ Justus is the Latin word for just or righteous. And you all know what et is. Et the past tense of the verb ‘to eat.’ Have you et your dinner? No, you know that’s not what that means. You remember in the death scene of Caesar after he’s been stabbed by Brutus he says, “Et tu, Brute?” Then fall Caesar. And you too Brutus? It simply means 'and', Peccator means sinner.

And so with this formula Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same time and in the same relationship just and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel.

Will I be judged in order to get into heaven by my righteousness or by the righteousness of Christ? If I had to trust in my righteousness to get into heaven, I would completely and utterly despair of any possibility of ever being redeemed. But when we see that the righteousness that is ours by faith is the perfect righteousness of Christ, then we see how glorious is the good news of the gospel. The good news is simply this, I can be reconciled to God, I can be justified by God not on the basis of what I did, but on the basis of what’s been accomplished for me by Christ.

But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn’t compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of God.

Now in that article that I provided you the link to, it explains this very thing. We will look at a few passages. Please keep in mind that I am not promoting sin, or denying good works. I am sharing with you, that sinners who believe and declared righteous on account of Christ, but we are still in these bodies of death! We have not received our glorified bodies yet. So the war begins, between the flesh vs the spirit. This is the ongoing battle believers face throughout their lives.

Let's start with 1 Tim. 1:15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

What does Paul say here? That Christ Jesus came to save sinners! Amen, and Amen to that! And Paul says---of whom I am the worst. Did you catch that? Paul said, "I am", not I was.

In Romans 7:
13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Every believer will struggle with sin, throughout their lives. And Sanctification of the believer is a life-long process. Which is why we teach in the perseverance of the Saints. Only in Christ Alone through Faith Alone we have assurance before God, and no other place.

Hope this helps???

God Bless!
 
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