How do churches get around this verse?

[k4c]

How do churches that believe drinking fermented wine is a sin get around these verses?

1 Timoth 3:8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money.

This has to be fermented wine because why would grape juice be a problem? This tells us that even church leaders are allowed to drink fermented wine in moderation.

Titus 2:3 The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

It's the same for woman who are role models who are to teach good things.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

How do churches that believe drinking fermented wine is a sin get around these verses?

1 Timoth 3:8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money.

This has to be fermented wine because why would grape juice be a problem? This tells us that even church leaders are allowed to drink fermented wine in moderation.

Titus 2:3 The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

It's the same for woman who are role models who are to teach good things.

Beats me.

BFA

 

[unkern]

Its called perverting the Torah (G-ds commands). The Rabbi's perverted the Torah with the written code aka oral law. Other nations perverted the Torah by doing whatever they wanted. Most churches pervert the Torah by living by their own rules or Oral laws rather than the Lords.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Its called perverting the Torah (G-ds commands). The Rabbi's perverted the Torah with the written code aka oral law. Other nations perverted the Torah by doing whatever they wanted. Most churches pervert the Torah by living by their own rules or Oral laws rather than the Lords.

There is probably some truth in that. And many churches are guilty of it.

Several years ago, I was on the staff of a Methodist Church (I'm not Methodist) and I learned that there were many man-made restrictions relating to the administration of communion (i.e. it should be weekly, must be blessed by an ordained minister, cannot be blessed by an ordained deacon, etc.). Where did these rules come from?

Somehow we've fooled ourselves into believing that church services include a certain number of prayers and an offering and a sermon. Sometimes we even treat these things as though they were commanded by God, even though they weren't.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, it seems that a person could make a strong case for consuming alcohol only in moderation. But I don't see the basis for teaching that God demands total abstinence.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Thanks for your replies... But I wonder how many of the 33 viewers were SDA's. This is one of the reasons why I left the SDA. They say they stand for the truth of God's word, yet they add commandments of men. This is somthing that Jesus was not happy about. To top it off, I don't even drink but I can't bring unneccesary guilt and condemnation on people by calling something sin when, in fact, it is not. I believe the SDA's have a lot of good biblical truth to offer the world but it's doctrines like these that turn people away. The same goes for jewelry, dancing, theater, jazz, fiction books. There are some people within the SDA that won't even eat a pickle because of the vinigar.

I believe the SDA need to repent and turn from their doctrines and commandments of men or woman and receive the truth that's in God's word. I wouldn't even have a problem if they chose to abstain from these things on an individual and personal level without calling them sinful for others. If they did, I would return to the church because, like I said, they do have a lot of good teachings.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Thanks for your replies... But I wonder how many of the 33 viewers were SDA's. This is one of the reasons why I left the SDA. They say they stand for the truth of God's word, yet they add commandments of men. This is somthing that Jesus was not happy about. To top it off, I don't even drink but I can't bring unneccesary guilt and condemnation on people by calling something sin when, in fact, it is not. I believe the SDA's have a lot of good biblical truth to offer the world but it's doctrines like these that turn people away. The same goes for jewelry, dancing, theater, jazz, clean and unclean meat, fiction books. There are some people within the SDA that won't even eat a pickle because of the vinigar.

I believe the SDA need to repent and turn from their doctrines and commandments of men or woman and receive the truth that's in God's word. I wouldn't even have a problem if they chose to abstain from these things on an individual and personal level without calling them sinful for others. If they did, I would return to the church because, like I said, they do have a lot of good teachings.

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem if Christian groups taught that we people should be careful when considering certain behaviors or activities. However, it does bother me when a Christian group strictly prohibits and activity that is not strictly prohibited by God.

BFA

 

[k4c]

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem if Christian groups taught that we people should be careful when considering certain behaviors or activities. However, it does bother me when a Christian group strictly prohibits and activity that is not strictly prohibited by God.

BFA

Amen and amen...

The real danger in calling something sin when the Bible does not is the effect it has on relationships.

Real or perceived sin has the same hardening effect on the heart. If we call everything sinful, our lives will be nothing but fear, guilt and condemnation. This is not salvation, this is legalisim.

Listen to what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

In other words, things that are not plainly called sin by Jesus is lawful but we are not to be controlled by these things. For example, if I know my brother believes drinking wine is a sin I should not drink in front of him. If I believe my brother in Christ believes eating ham is a sin then I shouldn't eat it in front of him. I shouldn't let my freedom control me even to the point that I cause my WEAKER brother to stumble. If we teach all these things to be sinful, when Jesus does not, we only produce weak brothers and sisters.

Listen to the next verse in the same context.

1 Corinthians 6:13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

Both food and the stomach are temporary and will be destroyed in the end but we are not to use our bodies for sexual immorality. Why is sexual morality a sin? Because it comes form the heart.

Matthew 15:16-19 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Now some people may say this verse is referring to eating with unwashed hands. But the truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter if it's unwashed hands or unwashed dishes because what goes in the mouth is not what defiles a person.

Romans 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

If only the SDA could understand this.

 

[AzA]

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem if Christian groups taught that we people should be careful when considering certain behaviors or activities. However, it does bother me when a Christian group strictly prohibits and activity that is not strictly prohibited by God.

I have found this to be a consistent issue across denominations, across religions, and across philosophies.

 

[unkern]

Amen and amen...

The real danger in calling something sin when the Bible does not is the effect it has on relationships.

Real or perceived sin has the same hardening effect on the heart. If we call everything sinful, our lives will be nothing but fear, guilt and condemnation. This is not salvation, this is legalisim.

Listen to what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

In other words, things that are not plainly called sin by Jesus is lawful but we are not to be controlled by these things. For example, if I know my brother believes drinking wine is a sin I should not drink in front of him. If I believe my brother in Christ believes eating ham is a sin then I shouldn't eat it in front of him. I shouldn't let my freedom control me even to the point that I cause my WEAKER brother to stumble. If we teach all these things to be sinful, when Jesus does not, we only produce weak brothers and sisters.

Listen to the next verse in the same context.

1 Corinthians 6:13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

Both food and the stomach are temporary and will be destroyed in the end but we are not to use our bodies for sexual immorality. Why is sexual morality a sin? Because it comes form the heart.

Matthew 15:16-19 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Now some people may say this verse is referring to eating with unwashed hands. But the truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter if it's unwashed hands or unwashed dishes because what goes in the mouth is not what defiles a person.

Romans 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

If only the SDA could understand this.

Dont forget the context

1 Corinthians 6:12 does not say lawful it says permissable. Dont forget what Paul said in Romans "Is the law sin, G-d forbid"

Mark 7:1-8
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

What command of the Lord's did they let go? did the Lord say it was ok to eat unclean foods? What rules of men is he talking about? Is it not the rules to say that one must wash there hand several times and wash the dishes ritually?

 

[k4c]

Dont forget the context

1 Corinthians 6:12 does not say lawful it says permissable. Dont forget what Paul said in Romans "Is the law sin, G-d forbid"

Mark 7:1-8
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

What command of the Lord's did they let go? did the Lord say it was ok to eat unclean foods? What rules of men is he talking about? Is it not the rules to say that one must wash there hand several times and wash the dishes ritually?

The issue is not in the washing of hands or dishes, the issue is that nothing that goes into the mouth defiles a man. That can be dirty dishes, dirty hands, ham, lobster or anything else.

Paul, who was a Hebrew of Hebrews had to be convinced of this by Jesus.

Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

 

[Doveaman]

How do churches that believe drinking fermented wine is a sin get around these verses?

1 Timoth 3:8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money.

This has to be fermented wine because why would grape juice be a problem? This tells us that even church leaders are allowed to drink fermented wine in moderation.

Titus 2:3 The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

It's the same for woman who are role models who are to teach good things.

In addition:

NIV – Take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. Use the silver to buy
whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink...Deut 14:25-26.

KJV – Bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine,
or for strong drink...Deut 14:25-26.

God does not have a problem with us using strong fermented drinks in moderation.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

How do churches that believe drinking fermented wine is a sin get around these verses?

1 Timoth 3:8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money.

This has to be fermented wine because why would grape juice be a problem? This tells us that even church leaders are allowed to drink fermented wine in moderation.

Titus 2:3 The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

It's the same for woman who are role models who are to teach good things.

1. a couple of things. in the acient world there was not refridgiation so wine would have had some fermentation in it unless it was fresh squeesed grape juice. so they used what was availiable, but the bible is clear that newer wine (less fermentation) is better then older wine (more fermentation)

2. the symbolism of the wine is the sinless life of Christ, non corrupted by sin. fermentation is decay and corruption due to sin. the symbolism is about purity

 

[JonMiller]

I think that alcohol causes so many problems that many should not use it. And perhaps all shouldn't use it to discourage it's use.

But I don't think that there is anything inherently sinful in drinking some, and I do so myself right now. Although I could forsee a time when I stop.

I know that even though I haven't made as many mistakes due to drinking as some, that I am inclined to drink heavily and I am not as capable when I have had more than a couple drinks. I thank God that I don't have many of the problems with alcohol that some have, like getting angry or having sex with people I shouldn't or such things. I have a hard enough time with the problems that I do have with alcohol (Arguably the biggest being the tendency to over-indulge, which hurts my body and mind).

JM

 

[k4c]

icedragon101; 1. a couple of things. in the acient world there was not refridgiation so wine would have had some fermentation in it unless it was fresh squeesed grape juice. so they used what was availiable, but the bible is clear that newer wine (less fermentation) is better then older wine (more fermentation)

People in OT times didn't make or drink fermented wine by accident.

New wine was intoxicating.

Acts 2:13-15 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine.'' But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

2. the symbolism of the wine is the sinless life of Christ, non corrupted by sin. fermentation is decay and corruption due to sin. the symbolism is about purity

Fermented wine is a symbol of corruption according to context in the same way leaven is a symbol of false doctrine according to context.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.''

Matthew 16:12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

The above leaven is bad leaven.

Now listen to this leaven.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.''

Luke 13:18-21 Then He said, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? "It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.'' And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.''

The above leaven is good leaven.

Are we to say that all leaven is bad and represents false doctrine?

 

[k4c]

JonMiller; I think that alcohol causes so many problems that many should not use it. And perhaps all shouldn't use it to discourage it's use.

Amen and amen...we just can't call it sinful to use it in moderation.

But I don't think that there is anything inherently sinful in drinking some, and I do so myself right now. Although I could forsee a time when I stop.

Amen and amen...now tell that to the heads of the SDA.

I know that even though I haven't made as many mistakes due to drinking as some, that I am inclined to drink heavily and I am not as capable when I have had more than a couple drinks. I thank God that I don't have many of the problems with alcohol that some have, like getting angry or having sex with people I shouldn't or such things. I have a hard enough time with the problems that I do have with alcohol (Arguably the biggest being the tendency to over-indulge, which hurts my body and mind).

JM

Amen...This is called, working out your salvation.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I think that alcohol causes so many problems that many should not use it. And perhaps all shouldn't use it to discourage it's use.

What you've written are your opinions. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. I certainly would agree with you that alcohol (like many other things) can be used in inappropriate ways. However, does a denomination have the right to prohibit its members from engaging in behavior that is not mandated by Scripture?

BFA

 

[Doveaman]

1. a couple of things. in the acient world there was not refridgiation so wine would have had some fermentation in it unless it was fresh squeesed grape juice. so they used what was availiable, but the bible is clear that newer wine (less fermentation) is better then older wine (more fermentation)

I am of the view that the water Christ turned to wine was good strong fermented wine that the master of the wedding feast felt should have been brought out earlier.

And he said to him, "Everyone brings out the good wine first and then the cheaper wine...but you have kept the good wine till now."...John 2:10.

2. the symbolism of the wine is the sinless life of Christ, non corrupted by sin. fermentation is decay and corruption due to sin. the symbolism is about purity

I am also of the view that the wine used in the Lord’s Supper was also good strong fermented wine symbolizing the strong cleansing power of Christ' blood.

Strong fermented wine was also used as a form of medication to cleanse illnesses.

Stop drinking only water, but use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses...1 Tim 5:23.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I am of the view that the water Christ turned to wine was good strong fermented wine that the master of the wedding feast felt should have been brought out earlier.

And he said to him, "Everyone brings out the good wine first and then the cheaper wine...but you have kept the good wine till now."...John 2:10.
I am also of the view that the wine used in the Lord’s Supper was also good strong fermented wine symbolizing the strong cleansing power of Christ' blood.

Strong fermented wine was also used as a form of medication to cleanse illnesses.

Stop drinking only water, but use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses...1 Tim 5:23.

I believe that your conclusions make good sense based on the passages themselves. Let me offer an example to explain what I mean.

If the wine was merely grape juice, common sense suggests that the host would bring out the cheap stuff first with the thought that, by comparison, the stuff brought out later would be immediately recognized as superior. If the host brought out the fine wine first, folks would complain when the cheaper wine was brought out later.

However, if the wine was not merely grape juice, it makes more sense why the cheaper wine could be served later. After all, those who had become a bit relaxed from drinking the finer wine would be less likely to notice the change.

Just my $.02.

BFA

 

[JonMiller]

I think the SDA church is just fine in discouraging the use of alcohol. In condemning alcohol as a problem for society. I mean, it is fine to say it is bad to drink alcohol just like it is bad to drink pop.

What it is not fine in is calling it a sin (always).

This problem of calling things sins which aren't is a very big one, and one of my biggest problems with the SDA church.

JM

 

[k4c]

JonMiller; I think the SDA church is just fine in discouraging the use of alcohol. In condemning alcohol as a problem for society. I mean, it is fine to say it is bad to drink alcohol just like it is bad to drink pop.

What it is not fine in is calling it a sin (always).

Amen and amen...

This problem of calling things sins which aren't is a very big one, and one of my biggest problems with the SDA church.

JM

So how can we make them change?