How do Catholics try to explain the Glories of Mary to a protestant?

[RileyG]

We don't have to go through Mary or anybody else to know and love Jesus Christ. The thief on the cross beside Jesus didn't go through Mary. The jailer at Philippi who asked "What must I do to be saved?" was not told to go through Mary. When the apostles preached the gospel, they said nothing about coming to Christ through Mary. Jesus Himself said:

“"Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Mt 11:28 NKJV)

Not one word about coming to Him through Mary!

Correct, but she can still pray for us.

 

[David Lamb]

Correct, but she can still pray for us.

What biblical evidence do you have that either Mary or indeed anybody who has died and gone to heaven, can pray for us?

 

[Hazelelponi]

She deserves our highest praise. She gave birth to our savior.

What did she do without the aid of God?

Everything we do should be pointing to Christ - Mary herself didn't ask praise she herself pointed to Christ.

Of course God bestowed upon her the highest honor, that of being the earthly mother of the Messiah, and we should always recognize that but we have erred when we stop pointing to Christ.

Mary is a role model of women everywhere, this kind of faithfulness in the face of trials is amazing - but she points to Christ not to herself.

It's the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). It is Christ who saved us and reconciled us to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

Mary is a role model for women. Not Lord, and not intercessor. She is representative of faithful Israel - which is what we strive to be. And faithful Israel will always point to Christ.

This is the only concern for Protestants.

 

[RileyG]

What did she do without the aid of God?

Everything we do should be pointing to Christ - Mary herself didn't ask praise she herself pointed to Christ.

Of course God bestowed upon her the highest honor, that of being the earthly mother of the Messiah, and we should always recognize that but we have erred when we stop pointing to Christ.

Mary is a role model of women everywhere, this kind of faithfulness in the face of trials is amazing - but she points to Christ not to herself.

It's the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). It is Christ who saved us and reconciled us to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

Mary is a role model for women. Not Lord, and not intercessor. She is representative of faithful Israel - which is what we strive to be. And faithful Israel will always point to Christ.

This is the only concern for Protestants.

Mary always points to Christ.

 

[RileyG]

What biblical evidence do you have that either Mary or indeed anybody who has died and gone to heaven, can pray for us?

Rev 5:8

Also, where biblical proof do you have where it says everything taught must be in scripture? 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to the Jewish Tanak since the canon of NT didn’t exist yet.

 

[AveChristusRex]

The stories about Mary's death / ascension / assumption are diverse and appear relatively late (3rd century), while e.g. Epiphanius of Salamis (c. 310–403 CE) acknowledges no one knows with certainty what happened to Mary.

Sorry, but this isn't exactly true, The Dormition/Assumption of Mary, attributed to St. John, possibly predates the 2nd century Book of Mary's Repose. Veneration of Mary in regards to Her dormition existed prior to Epiphanius and the third century writers, however how much of it there was is relatively unknown.

 

[AveChristusRex]

Mary always points to Christ.

Ad Jesuam per Mariam (to Jesus through Mary)

 

[ozso]

Ad Jesuam per Mariam (to Jesus through Mary)

That's the objection. There's zero indication of that. It's quite clear that we have direct access to the Lord without any third party being involved. Personally I think putting Mary in the middle distances us from Christ.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Sorry, but this isn't exactly true, The Dormition/Assumption of Mary, attributed to St. John, possibly predates the 2nd century Book of Mary's Repose. Veneration of Mary in regards to Her dormition existed prior to Epiphanius and the third century writers, however how much of it there was is relatively unknown.

There seem to be more than 50 references/mentions to Mary by the pre-400 CE Church Fathers; and no one mentions/confirms her alleged assumption. That in itself is very strong support for the hypothesis that belief in her assumption is a later development. Even Epiphanius of Salamis can't confirm that - showing that even in his days that was not a generally accepted 'fact'.

On top of that, theologically there is no need to presume/believe in her assumption - otherwise the NT books would have mentioned that. When one creates an historical outline with all mentioned beliefs and statements regarding Mary from the NT period until 1900 - a trend is noticeable. (from 'Mother of God' (431 CE) to the dogma of her assumption (1950 CE) ...)

All combined it creates the impression of Mariology in overdrive. NT books don't call Mary 'God bearer' - she literally is described as the blessed mother of the Son of God. That should suffice.

 

[AveChristusRex]

That's the objection. There's zero indication of that. It's quite clear that we have direct access to the Lord without any third party being involved. Personally I think putting Mary in the middle distances us from Christ.

Well, your opinion is respected, of course, however, I disagree entirely; there is no place in Scripture that says that, nor, if we look deeply, any time that God speaks to us without a mediator:

• God's telling of Creation was written down by a mediator, the Prophet Moses
• The Gospels were written down by a mediator, Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
• The Prophecies of the OT were written down by mediators: the Prophets
• The Prophecies of the NT were written down by a mediator, St. John

There is no place in scripture where God speaks directly to us, so, truly, we have no "direct access without a third party" as the giving of the wisdom which is used to dismiss the nature of intercessory prayer was not, in itself, given directly by God.

 

[AveChristusRex]

There seem to be more than 50 references/mentions to Mary by the pre-400 CE Church Fathers; and no one mentions/confirms her alleged assumption. That in itself is very strong support for the hypothesis that belief in her assumption is a later development. Even Epiphanius of Salamis can't confirm that - showing that even in his days that was not a generally accepted 'fact'.

On top of that, theologically there is no need to presume/believe in her assumption - otherwise the NT books would have mentioned that. When one creates an historical outline with all mentioned beliefs and statements regarding Mary from the NT period until 1900 - a trend is noticeable. (from 'Mother of God' (431 CE) to the dogma of her assumption (1950 CE) ...)

The issue is here is that you admit that from 'Mother of God' (431 CE) to the dogma of her assumption (1950 CE) is a development of doctrine, which is true. I note that we did not understand the Trinity off the cuff of Christ's assent, and thus our understanding of it developed over time, and through the Councils declaring and weeding out what is doctrine and what is not. The same happened in regards to Mariology.

 

[ozso]

Well, your opinion is respected, of course, however, I disagree entirely; there is no place in Scripture that says that, nor, if we look deeply, any time that God speaks to us without a mediator:

• God's telling of Creation was written down by a mediator, the Prophet Moses
• The Gospels were written down by a mediator, Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
• The Prophecies of the OT were written down by mediators: the Prophets
• The Prophecies of the NT were written down by a mediator, St. John

There is no place in scripture where God speaks directly to us, so, truly, we have no "direct access without a third party" as the giving of the wisdom which is used to dismiss the nature of intercessory prayer was not, in itself, given directly by God.

That's not what I was referring to, however are you saying that Mary speaks to you?

 

[ozso]

The issue is here is that you admit that from 'Mother of God' (431 CE) to the dogma of her assumption (1950 CE) is a development of doctrine, which is true. I note that we did not understand the Trinity off the cuff of Christ's assent, and thus our understanding of it developed over time, and through the Councils declaring and weeding out what is doctrine and what is not. The same happened in regards to Mariology.

The Trinity is always pointed out. As though the Trinity and Mariology are on an equal plane.

 

[RileyG]

The Trinity is always pointed out. As though the Trinity and Mariology are on an equal plane.

They're not. Not even close.

Ever been to a Catholic Mass?

It's entirely trinity focused with Mary only being mentioned twice.

Not once is she ever "worshipped."

 

[RileyG]

That's not what I was referring to, however are you saying that Mary speaks to you?

She certainly prays for me and I pray to her often, because I need her prayers.

I worship God and only God alone.

The trinity- and the trinity alone- is whom I worship.

Pray (ask) is not the same as worship.

 

[RileyG]

That's the objection. There's zero indication of that. It's quite clear that we have direct access to the Lord without any third party being involved. Personally I think putting Mary in the middle distances us from Christ.

Not at all. If anything, she brings us CLOSER to Christ because CHRIST is the end goal.

If she distances us from Christ...then THAT would be a problem.

 

[ozso]

They're not. Not even close.

Ever been to a Catholic Mass?

It's entirely trinity focused with Mary only being mentioned twice.

Not once is she ever "worshipped."

Yes I've been to Mass and have watched videos of Mass and haven't had any problems with it. The observable adoration of Mary is seen outside of Mass in all the imagery and by what appears to be a huge emphasis on Mary. People kneeling to and even on their knees praying the the statues and icons of Mary. Shrines of Mary.

I think it's pretty obvious why this gets equated with worship, and why Mary it appears that Mary is being depicted as a deity.

It doesn't appear much different than this:

 

[RileyG]

Yes I've been to Mass and have watched videos of Mass and haven't had any problems with it. The observable adoration of Mary is seen outside of Mass in all the imagery and by what appears to be a huge emphasis on Mary. People kneeling to and even on their knees praying the the statues and icons of Mary. Shrines of Mary.

View attachment 359609

I think it's pretty obvious why this gets equated with worship, and why Mary it appears that Mary is being depicted as a deity.

I will say this.

Kneeling and bowing can be sign of reverence.

There is not a single Catholic priest who offered THE SACRIFICE of the Mass TO The Virgin Mary.

The sacrifice of the Mass is always offered to God.

From the outside looking in, and for those who don’t venerate Saints, I can see how that may be confusing.

 

[RileyG]

Yes I've been to Mass and have watched videos of Mass and haven't had any problems with it. The observable adoration of Mary is seen outside of Mass in all the imagery and by what appears to be a huge emphasis on Mary. People kneeling to and even on their knees praying the the statues and icons of Mary. Shrines of Mary.

View attachment 359609

I think it's pretty obvious why this gets equated with worship, and why Mary it appears that Mary is being depicted as a deity.

Kim Hahn, the daughter of a Presbyterian minister, the wife of former Presbyterian minister turned faithful Catholic apologist, now a faithful Catholic and convert from Presbyterianism, said the same thing about prayer vs worship in her husbands book “Rome Sweet Home.”

Many Protestants do no differentiate between prayer and worship.

That’s why so many don’t necessarily understand Catholic veneration of the blessed virgin and the saints.

No Catholic would offer sacrifice to the Virgin Mary.

Worship belongs to the holy trinity- GOD- alone.

 

[ozso]

She certainly prays for me and I pray to her often, because I need her prayers.

I worship God and only God alone.

The trinity- and the trinity alone- is whom I worship.

Pray (ask) is not the same as worship.

How do you know Mary prays for you? Did Jesus or the Apostles tell you she does?