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How do Catholics try to explain the Glories of Mary to a protestant?

Cis.jd

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The Glories of Mary seem to be one of the biggest things a protestant shows to support their argument of Catholics crossing the line with Mary.


We catholics have articulated well as to how we don't worship Mary, defending any objections of "Mother of God", being without sin, perpetual virginity, assumed to heaven, interceding for us. These can be defended on a scriptural and rational sense IMO, however the "Glories of Mary" writing from ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI is a tough one to me because I do see certain language in where I can't blame a protestant for interpreting it as giving her glory and honor that is already stepping the boundaries.
Terms such as: Mother of Mercy!, chapter VIII "Mary rescues her servants", and many more can be seen as stepping over the line. Yes, the writing acknowledges her as an "advocate" and "creature", it does give praises to God and in some ways makes him a source, but the verbiage is difficult to rationalize.

I would like to see how the smart catholics here are able to talk about this writing and defend the conceptions it may have.
 

Reluctant Theologian

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"Mother of God", being without sin, perpetual virginity, assumed to heaven, interceding for us
I'm not Roman Catholic, how would you defend from Biblical texts any of these as AFAIK none of these are mentioned there?
 
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Cis.jd

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I'm not Roman Catholic, how would you defend from Biblical texts any of these as AFAIK none of these are mentioned there?
While that would be great to talk about, I think that may cause this to stray away from the topic. We can have this question asked once a few people answer the initial question.
 
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concretecamper

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The Glories of Mary seem to be one of the biggest things a protestant shows to support their argument of Catholics crossing the line with Mary.
You should clarify this with time periods.

The Reformers had very little/no disagreement with The Catholic Church when it comes to beliefs about Mary (just research Luther and his Marian beliefs). As the protestant phenomenon evolved, the beliefs about Mary were disguarded mostly in an attempt to separate from anything Catholic.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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You should clarify this with time periods.

The Reformers had very little/no disagreement with The Catholic Church when it comes to beliefs about Mary (just research Luther and his Marian beliefs). As the protestant phenomenon evolved, the beliefs about Mary were disguarded mostly in an attempt to separate from anything Catholic.
That is certainly true, it just still is educational to reconstruct how and when these Marian beliefs developed, and when formal confessions were constructed. That's an historical effort that hopefully helps us to understand the truth about the historical Mary / Miriam.

As a protestant I fully acknowledge that anything that is not in the Biblical texts is not by definition untrue, but at we need to carefully examine whether later professed or developed Marian beliefs are likely to be based on historical facts (by orally transmitted information or revelation).
 
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Cis.jd

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You should clarify this with time periods.

The Reformers had very little/no disagreement with The Catholic Church when it comes to beliefs about Mary (just research Luther and his Marian beliefs). As the protestant phenomenon evolved, the beliefs about Mary were disguarded mostly in an attempt to separate from anything Catholic.
yes.. but in regards to those statements, how can you explain those words to not be crossing the line of idolatry to a protestant who thinks it is?
 
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Cis.jd

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She gave birth to God the flesh. Therefore, she should be honored, not worshipped.

Simple.
sure.. but the verbage in the "glories of mary", how does one explain it because it can offend the sensibilities of the common non-catholic.
 
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concretecamper

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sure.. but the verbage in the "glories of mary", how does one explain it because it can offend the sensibilities of the common non-catholic.
Why should Catholic worry about if protestants are offended about the truth?
 
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concretecamper

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yes.. but in regards to those statements, how can you explain those words to not be crossing the line of idolatry to a protestant who thinks it is?
See previous post
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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She gave birth to God the flesh. Therefore, she should be honored, not worshipped.

Simple.
I struggle with that kind of terminology as the New Covenant / NT books don't use it. These writings state she gave birth to the Son of God (while also John 1:1c states that ' .. god was the word' without the definite article). According to various verses Mary is blessed (Greek: eulogēmenē) and happy (Greek: Makarios), but nowhere does it exhort to giving honour or veneration, or that people should pray to her, or that she would be interceding.

The stories about Mary's death / ascension / assumption are diverse and appear relatively late (3rd century), while e.g. Epiphanius of Salamis (c. 310–403 CE) acknowledges no one knows with certainty what happened to Mary.

Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in scripture as intercessors. It seems to me attributing that role to Mary diminishes the former.

Maybe it's not a coincidence the Quran seems to define the Trinity as 'God, Isa (Yeshua) and Mary' - because at that time (early 7th century CE) Marian beliefs had already developed strongly.
 
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RileyG

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I struggle with that kind of terminology as the New Covenant / NT books don't use it. These writings state she gave birth to the Son of God (while also John 1:1c states that ' .. god was the word' without the definite article). According to various verses Mary is blessed (Greek: eulogēmenē) and happy (Greek: Makarios), but nowhere does it exhort to giving honour or veneration, or that people should pray to her, or that she would be interceding.

The stories about Mary's death / ascension / assumption are diverse and appear relatively late (3rd century), while e.g. Epiphanius of Salamis (c. 310–403 CE) acknowledges no one knows with certainty what happened to Mary.

Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in scripture as intercessors. It seems to me attributing that role to Mary diminishes the former.

Maybe it's not a coincidence the Quran seems to define the Trinity as 'God, Isa (Yeshua) and Mary' - because at that time (early 7th century CE) Marian beliefs had already developed strongly.
What’s wrong with honoring the woman who held God in her womb?
 
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RileyG

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sure.. but the verbage in the "glories of mary", how does one explain it because it can offend the sensibilities of the common non-catholic.
She deserves our highest praise. She gave birth to our savior.
 
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Cis.jd

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What’s wrong with honoring the woman who held God in her womb?
nothing is wrong, but more of how do you explain certain words used here to rationalize the difference between honor and giving praises worthy to God?
"Mary rescues her servants" and some other phrases. How and what does one say to clarify how this is not the same form of things that we can only reserve to God? I just want something that can be explained to a non catholic.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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What’s wrong with honoring the woman who held God in her womb?
That depends on what you mean by 'honouring' .... The gospels tell us she is blessed/happy, but nowhere are we called to 'honour' her.

And how would honouring her make any difference? She is deceased/asleep (in Biblical terms); we're not supposed to pray to her, she can't intercede for us, she wasn't sinless but a human being like us all.

Of course we can acknowledge her as the blessed mother of our Messiah .. but that Messiah is also her King / Lord / Master.

It's not my intention to offend anyone for whom Mary is dear to his/her faith - I just can't understand (yet?) the logic of that given the Biblical texts we have and what we know from (early) Church history. I realise you have an artwork depicting Mary as your ChristianForums user icon so I presume Mary is a role model to you?

Personally I do believe she didn't have any other children beside Yeshua (as that explains best why the Marian belief of her perpetual virginity could arise / emerge at all), however I think it's likely she did not remain a virgin after Yeshua's birth - it would be the natural expectation of any marriage. Joseph and Mary were married for at least twelve years, to assume this was a sex-less marriage for all that time makes no sense given how Jewish society valued marriage and even Yeshua characterises marriage by the one-ness of the flesh.

There is a clear historical parallel between the progressive development of the various Marian beliefs and the rising asceticism in the Christian Church; I presume the former is supported by the latter.

Although not Roman Catholic myself I still love to visit and wander through old European (Roman Catholic) churches - the history, dedication and reverence are very much appreciated by me. I rejoice in what we have in common, and not focus on differences.

Be blessed !
 
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JoeT

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The Glories of Mary seem to be one of the biggest things a protestant shows to support their argument of Catholics crossing the line with Mary.


We catholics have articulated well as to how we don't worship Mary, defending any objections of "Mother of God", being without sin, perpetual virginity, assumed to heaven, interceding for us. These can be defended on a scriptural and rational sense IMO, however the "Glories of Mary" writing from ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI is a tough one to me because I do see certain language in where I can't blame a protestant for interpreting it as giving her glory and honor that is already stepping the boundaries.
Terms such as: Mother of Mercy!, chapter VIII "Mary rescues her servants", and many more can be seen as stepping over the line. Yes, the writing acknowledges her as an "advocate" and "creature", it does give praises to God and in some ways makes him a source, but the verbiage is difficult to rationalize.

I would like to see how the smart Catholics here are able to talk about this writing and defend the conceptions it may have.
I don't think I could rightly fit in the category of "smart Catholic" but I don't see any difficulties with the Glories of Mary. I look at it like this, you don't love what you don't know. You can't know Christ, and thus love Christ, without going through Mary.

JoeT
 
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David Lamb

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I don't think I could rightly fit in the category of "smart Catholic" but I don't see any difficulties with the Glories of Mary. I look at it like this, you don't love what you don't know. You can't know Christ, and thus love Christ, without going through Mary.

JoeT
We don't have to go through Mary or anybody else to know and love Jesus Christ. The thief on the cross beside Jesus didn't go through Mary. The jailer at Philippi who asked "What must I do to be saved?" was not told to go through Mary. When the apostles preached the gospel, they said nothing about coming to Christ through Mary. Jesus Himself said:

“"Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Mt 11:28 NKJV)

Not one word about coming to Him through Mary!
 
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JoeT

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We don't have to go through Mary or anybody else to know and love Jesus Christ. The thief on the cross beside Jesus didn't go through Mary. The jailer at Philippi who asked "What must I do to be saved?" was not told to go through Mary. When the apostles preached the gospel, they said nothing about coming to Christ through Mary. Jesus Himself said:

“"Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Mt 11:28 NKJV)

Not one word about coming to Him through Mary!
Who said anything about going through Mary? You?

When you pick up a magnifying glass because the print is small, do you go literally through the magnifying glass or do you see through the magnifier for the fine details? Mary says she is the magnifier of the Lord, [Luke 1:46]. Then, shouldn't we look to Mary to see the fine details of what we become as brothers and sisters to Christ [Matthew 12:50]. Maybe you've out smarted God making up the fine detail for yourself and don't need to read the fine print?

JoeT
 
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David Lamb

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Who said anything about going through Mary? You?

When you pick up a magnifying glass because the print is small, do you go literally through the magnifying glass or do you see through the magnifier for the fine details? Mary says she is the magnifier of the Lord, [Luke 1:46]. Then, shouldn't we look to Mary to see the fine details of what we become as brothers and sisters to Christ [Matthew 12:50]. Maybe you've out smarted God making up the fine detail for yourself and don't need to read the fine print?

JoeT
You ask who said anything about going through Mary. It was you, for you wrote: "You can't know Christ, and thus love Christ, without going through Mary."

Your point about the magnifying glass would also mean that we have to look at Jesus through the lens of all the Christians at Ephesus, for we read:

“This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.” (Ac 19:17 NKJV)

Also the apostle Paul wrote:

“according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.” (Php 1:20 NKJV)

But nowhere in the bible, as far as I am aware, are we told that we must look at Jesus Christ through the "magnifying lens" of Mary (or anybody else). Indeed we are told to look unto Him:

“looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Heb 12:2 NKJV)

Besides, the word translated "magnifies" in Mary's song (sometimes called the Magnificat) includes this meaning: to deem or declare great, to esteem highly, to extol, laud, celebrate. There seems nothing in her song to indicate that she was encouraging people to see her Son through her.
 
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JoeT

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The Glories of Mary seem to be one of the biggest things a protestant shows to support their argument of Catholics crossing the line with Mary.


We catholics have articulated well as to how we don't worship Mary, defending any objections of "Mother of God", being without sin, perpetual virginity, assumed to heaven, interceding for us. These can be defended on a scriptural and rational sense IMO, however the "Glories of Mary" writing from ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI is a tough one to me because I do see certain language in where I can't blame a protestant for interpreting it as giving her glory and honor that is already stepping the boundaries.
Terms such as: Mother of Mercy!, chapter VIII "Mary rescues her servants", and many more can be seen as stepping over the line. Yes, the writing acknowledges her as an "advocate" and "creature", it does give praises to God and in some ways makes him a source, but the verbiage is difficult to rationalize.

I would like to see how the smart catholics here are able to talk about this writing and defend the conceptions it may have.
There is nothing to defend in St. Alphonsus Liguori's book. I think I would spend most of my time trying to defend Once Saved Always Saved, or "if it ain't in the bible it ain't so" or Salvation comes from a BOOK or the "I believe" theory.

JoeT
 
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