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She is a Calvinist, and I am a Quaker
How do Calvinists view non-Calvinists
The good news is that it doesn't matter.
If Calvinists are right, the Arminian who desires to choose God is one of the Elect anyway.
If Arminians are right, the Calvinist who believes that he is one of the Elect and is grateful for that has chosen God anyway.
If Universalists are right, the Calvinists and Arminians will have a lot of company in heaven.
So far, no fire between us, inkfingers!
And what makes the criteria for a false god, twin? Surely, a person must study the Scriptures, believe them to be true, and then consciously reject what they present in order to fully embrace a false god. Erred doctrine (whatever that may be-- In my case, I believe Calvinism is in error), cannot be synonymous with a false god. If that is the case, then every Christian denomination worships a different god, and only one--or even none--is completely correct. I, along with many other Christians, have studied scriptures thoroughly and have concluded that the god of Calvin is simply not presented there.
So then what the Scriptures say doesn't really matter? Be careful that you don't allow compassion to cause you to compromise truth. Certainly we are to have compassion for those who oppose themselves but we can never allow our desires and compassion to compromise the truth.The good news is that it doesn't matter.
If Calvinists are right, the Arminian who desires to choose God is one of the Elect anyway.
If Arminians are right, the Calvinist who believes that he is one of the Elect and is grateful for that has chosen God anyway.
If Universalists are right, the Calvinists and Arminians will have a lot of company in heaven.
So then what the Scriptures say doesn't really matter? Be careful that you don't allow compassion to cause you to compromise truth. Certainly we are to have compassion for those who oppose themselves but we can never allow our desires and compassion to compromise the truth.
There are not many truths and many ways. There is only one way and one truth and one Gospel.
As I said it isn't a matter of some folks having error, Calvin was in error about a great many things but he was a believer. Luther was in error on a great many things but he too was a believer. Both of those men knew who God is and who Christ is. You cannot believe in a God or Christ whom you do not know.
Again it isn't a matter of what you know it is who you know.
I say this with all seriousness and care, good choice but a bad reason for it. I know folks who change their theology like they change their clothes. I was this but now I am this and tomorrow I will be something else. We don't change our theology we come from the false to the true. Once we have the truth it changes everything else. We don't think the same, act the same or hope in the same things that we once did. Our worship changes and so does our service.Arminians have their proof texts. Calvinists have theirs. I switched from Arminianism to Calvinism because the Arminian proofs don't hold water as well as the Calvinist proofs.
But the details are important. Our comfort and assurance come from the details. Our understanding and increasing faith come from the details. In Matt. 11:29 the Lord said learn on Me and find rest for your souls. The more we learn of the details the more we rest in Him.But, God chose to make the gospel a lot more vague than he chose to make the Hebrew Bible. There has to be a reason for that, and I think that the reason is that Jesus does all the work anyway, so the details of salvation are not our business. It's a gift. Take it. Unwrap it. Enjoy it. Be grateful. Period.
It isn't about a checklist it is about revealed knowledge. One of the things Paul told the Thessalonians were how he knew their election of God was the fact that they turned from idols to serve the living God. 1Thess. 1:9If he had given us a salvation checklist, then we'd have to do things to make sure that all the boxes are checked. This is why I left the Methodists to join the PCA. The Methodists like to claim that its all grace, but they turn it into works to get you to participate in their Social Gospel.
Your own words betray the fact that you now worship a different God. I am not trying to be mean or controversial but I do want to speak the truth in love. I will leave off this topic now though for I get into trouble with the mods every time I speak on this topic.In the PCA, I can worship a God that acts like a Creator of the Universe should act and I can accept the gift of grace with no strings attached. All of my works can flow from gratitude and not as the result of a thinly-veiled threat of a "lost salvation".
Your own words betray the fact that you now worship a different God. I am not trying to be mean or controversial but I do want to speak the truth in love. I will leave off this topic now though for I get into trouble with the mods every time I speak on this topic.
I can see why you get into trouble. It is insulting and ludicrous, not to mention extremely presumptuous, to say that it is a fact that I worship a different God based on a few words because I refuse to denounce Arminians as heretics, or whatever it is that you believe.
My apologies if you were insulted or offended. I meant to do neither. I get into trouble with the mods on this topic because you are not allowed to question the salvation of anyone on this site. You are free to believe whatever you want but I only ask that you honestly consider what I have said after you have calmed down. At the very least you might begin to understand why I believe as I do. You still may not agree with me and that is OK too. Judge what I have said by the Scriptures and come to your own conclusion.
Again I apologize if I have insulted or offended you.
Again it isn't about questioning peoples salvation it is a simple understanding of truth that there is no salvation in a false god. Believe me it breaks my heart as I have loved ones who are caught up in religion. When I pass by all the churches, you can't go a mile without passing at least one where I live, I am heartbroken. I want with all that is in me for folks to know Christ. I want them to know the one that has actually saved sinners.I'm not insulted or offended and I am calm.
I'm just not sure that I understand what you believe that requires you to question people's salvation. What level of Calvinist do you see yourself to be? That might help me to see where you are coming from. I see myself as a Moderate Calvinist.
Again it isn't about questioning peoples salvation it is a simple understanding of truth that there is no salvation in a false god. Believe me it breaks my heart as I have loved ones who are caught up in religion. When I pass by all the churches, you can't go a mile without passing at least one where I live, I am heartbroken. I want with all that is in me for folks to know Christ. I want them to know the one that has actually saved sinners.
I would consider myself an ultrahigh Calvinist.
So, God won't choose to save a non-Calvinist? Calvinism teaches that regeneration precedes faith, right? God chose us before we were born and not because of our works or theology.
When I drive past those other churches, I wonder how many are sitting in there wondering why their theology has huge, gaping holes (as I felt when I was Methodist) that their clergy can't adequately explain. I don't question their salvation or their "truth". I just pray that they find their way out, not because their salvation depends on Calvin, but because their Christian walk will just be more satisfying when they understand the true nature of God.
Would you mind if we took this to PM? A public debate in the ask a Calvinist forum is probably inappropriate. I recognize that most Calvinists disagree with me and my views are my own based on the light given me through the Scriptures.
He doesn't reveal Himself as a weak and helpless deity that must wait on them to do something. He always comes to the sinner first as Conqueror then as Comforter.
I hope that I have never even intimated that you are lost or without truth.We're both Calvinist, so there is no violation of the rules. I'm not even debating. I just wonder how an Ultra-Calvinist can consider a moderate Calvinist to be lost or without "truth".
First I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I was raised as one but shed that when I actually began to study the Scriptures and found out what the preaching of the Gospel is and how it is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe.We ALL have a distorted view of God, even you, brother Twin. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." - 1 Cor 13:12. However, a distorted view is completely different than a "false" God. It's pretty twisted (wicked) to say of ever person who don't not hold to hyper-calvinism that he worships a false God.
Hyper-Calvinists only understand God's sovereignty, but ignore man's responsibility. There is a tension between the two that most people can't handle so they completely favor one and ignore the other.
BTW, I am a Christian who happens to agree with Calvin's 5 points.
How do Calvinists view non-Calvinists--Or, especially, Christians like myself who hold views deviating far from Calvinism but, nonetheless, believe such things based upon our strongest biblical study and convictions?
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