How do Calvinists grapple with the doctrine of election?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

They act as if they had free will and choice in the matter.

 

[BBAS 64]

My view is he planned a way for salvation, available to all, but you have to chose to come to the light at some point. Its mutual.

Good day,

What in this world would/could motivate someone who loves darkness, whose mind in on evil continually to choose the light he hates?

 

[Halbhh]

Good day,

What in this world would/could motivate someone who loves darkness, whose mind in on evil continually to choose the light he hates?

Indeed, Christ's own wording is very clear and....well, better than any paraphrase from me --
right after John 3:16, we read:
17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

This suggests to me that people that seek the truth will be able to come to the light.

It reminds of Peter's words in Acts 10 --

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Some might wonder -- exactly what is the "right" meant?

Here's Christ telling us in Matthew 7 --

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

Those who even just want and try to do this, even failing at times, that they want to and try to, I think is enough to allow them to then find the light if they seek.

 

[BBAS 64]

Indeed, Christ's own wording is very clear and....well, better than any paraphrase from me --
right after John 3:16, we read:
17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

This suggests to me that people that seek the truth will be able to come to the light.

It reminds of Peter's words in Acts 10 --

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Some might wonder -- exactly what is the "right" meant?

Here's Christ telling us in Matthew 7 --

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

Those who even just want and try to do this, even failing at times, that they want to and try to, I think is enough to allow them to then find the light if they seek.

Good day,

None of this really answers the question "What in this world would/could motivate someone who loves darkness, whose mind in on evil continually to choose the light he hates?

You presuppose they do (with out cause) but have yet to deal with what is the motivation to so.

Do you see evil in direct contrast with light?

There are none that seek God no not one. In John 3 that you quoted where you think it "seems to say" some thing, which verses are descriptive in nature?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Halbhh]

Good day,

None of this really answers the question "What in this world would/could motivate someone who loves darkness, whose mind in on evil continually to choose the light he hates?

You presuppose they do (with out cause) but have yet to deal with what is the motivation to so.

Do you see evil in direct contrast with light?

There are none that seek God no not one. In John 3 that you quoted where you think it "seems to say" some thing, which verses are descriptive in nature?

In Him,

Bill

Well, if you look closer at that quote, it's really just that they choose -- make a choice. It's choice.

It's sorta like....choices individuals might make if given an opportunity to do something clearly wrong -- one could chose either way -- A or B.

Like you could pick up the $20 that just fell out the pocket of the people walking ahead of you and either
A) give it to them
or
B) keep it even though you know precisely who it belongs to

Choice.
There really is true ability to choose, and sometimes we even surprise ourselves, try something new.

Like someone dies, and then it really affects us emotionally, and we....start to think new thoughts, and maybe....just maybe (or maybe not, again it's choice)....choose a new direction.

There are definitely moments in life when we feel differently, and....could choose differently than usual.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, if you look closer at that quote, it's really just that they choose -- make a choice. It's choice.

It's sorta like....choices individuals might make if given an opportunity to do something clearly wrong -- one could chose either way -- A or B.

Like you could pick up the $20 that just fell out the pocket of the people walking ahead of you and either
A) give it to them
or
B) keep it even though you know precisely who it belongs to

Choice.
There really is true ability to choose, and sometimes we even surprise ourselves, try something new.

Like someone dies, and then it really affects us emotionally, and we....start to think new thoughts, and maybe....just maybe (or maybe not, again it's choice)....choose a new direction.

There are definitely moments in life when we feel differently, and....could choose differently than usual.

Good day,

Sorry I see no choice I see very descriptive verses of how things are not why they are that way... you read constructions in to the text that are not there so you assume that something seems one way.

But never the less for this sake it is a choice... what motivates a person that loves darkness to choose light that they hate... if their mind is set on evil what room does that mind have for truth? You will only and can only choose that which your heart most desires that is inescapable.

A heart that is desperately wicked can only choose in accordance to that desire of wickedness.

so can you answer they why question....

In Him,

Bill

 

[Halbhh]

Good day,

Sorry I see no choice I see very descriptive verses of how things are not why they are that way... you read constructions in to the text that are not there so you assume that something seems one way.

But never the less for this sake it is a choice... what motivates a person that loves darkness to choose light that they hate... if their mind is set on evil what room does that mind have for truth? You will only and can only choose that which your heart most desires that is inescapable.

A heart that is desperately wicked can only choose in accordance to that desire of wickedness.

so can you answer they why question....

In Him,

Bill

I don't think 'set on evil', but instead it's....sorta like....I prefer all the fun I imagine I can have over the....seemingly less fun that 'coming to the light' (following Christ) would be, as it seems to me, not yet having done it. (trying to remember that time quite a ways back)

Now, this can be below the level of any thinking-it-over, and perhaps even just a kind of impulse felt and given into, without consideration by thinking.

Even though many evils can become just habitual, that doesn't mean all are, so real moments of real choice still happen even in that state of not following Him, I think.

Don't know whether the example I tried to use of the $20 that falls out of a pocket in front of you is a good example of choice, but it's one that would be a choice to some people at some times in life. There are more commonplace choices of course, like whether to indulged, by choice, in the intensification of lusting, or whether to instead go the other way, trying to relate to someone really as a person, from the heart. Choice, choice, choice.

What's amazing (is this the right word?) is how Christ's Words affect us, and alter us, making us into a different person than we were, so that our feelings about choices are changed by listening (instead of doing all the talking and no listening) to Him, as we read His Words.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Good day,

What in this world would/could motivate someone who loves darkness, whose mind in on evil continually to choose the light he hates?

The law God has written in their hearts and their conscience also bearing witness... (Romans 2:14-16)
The Holy Spirit which convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment... (John 16:7-10)

 

[BBAS 64]

The law God has written in their hearts and their conscience also bearing witness... (Romans 2:14-16)
The Holy Spirit which convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment... (John 16:7-10)

Good Day, Risen in Jesus

Both of these references are in the context of believers....

In Him,

Bill

 

[samanjm]

They act as if they had free will and choice in the matter.

If so, it may be a sign of hypocrisy...on the other hand, can we blame them? I mean, do you think it's possible for a human being to act like as if they didn't have free will in a matter as grave as salvation? I know we as Christians should all submit to GOD's will, the question is, how far can you take that? If taken to extreme, one could just lie around in their room and wait for the death to come. That would be passivity for sure, but would that be submitting to divine providence? If the salvation is not our choice, if it's really God who does the saving, if you accept that as your doctrine, then I think you can really do only one of two things: Either you hope you're one of the elect and act accordingly, that is, you (at least on the outside) make effort to abide by His commands, or you tell yourself there's just no way you're saved and faill into despair or apathy. I think we all will agree the former is far better, at least I myself can't imagine that the alternative is right for anyone.

Of course there's the catholic option of laying this burden off at the sacrament of penance. If you choose to go that road, you don't have to worry about being saved, that's not the kind of question you ask yourself. You have a different anxiety, that is: Am I in the state of mortal sin right now, or not?

The reason I created this thread was to find out how calvinists reconcile their doctrine with the gospel. I wanted to find out how do calvinist grapple with doubts like "What if I'm on the wrong side, what if I'm not of the elect?"

This is a nice answer of the kind I've been looking for:

So what do you do when the doubts come? Rest in the knowledge of who He is, what you know about Him, and how much you know that He loves you, no matter how it feels. And most of all, decide that you're going to have faith/trust Him at His word (you know, whenever He says things like He does in John 5:24, for instance). It's hard at first, but many times we end up doubting our faith because we are actually doubting Him, which is really silly if you think about it

Here's another good one, more theologically loaded but to the point none the less:

Let me quote this too:

What is your only comfort in life and in death? That I am not my own, but belong—body and soul, in life and in death—to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil. He also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven; in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.

Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.

These both are, I think, nice formulation of the mechanism to deal with the existential anxiety within the framework of the calvinist theology.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Good Day, Risen in Jesus

Both of these references are in the context of believers....

In Him,

Bill

Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I don't see that the context is that of believers, though.

In John 16:7-10, although Jesus is speaking to His disciples, clearly the reference to the Helper/Holy Spirit cannot mean that the Spirit is only sent to believers because the text goes on to say one purpose of the Spirit coming will be to... convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more (John 16:8-10)

Then if you notice in Romans 2 the chapter starts with addressing mankind in general...Therefore you are inexcusable, O man (Romans 2:1)...O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?(Romans 2:3) and in particular Jews who have the law and Gentiles who do not, yet Jew or Gentile all men have God's law written on their heart. I don't see that this passage is referring to Christians.

"2:14-15 The reference to Gentiles (ἔθνη, ethnē) points not to Gentiles who are Christians, but rather to Gentiles as people without the Mosaic law (and by implication unsaved). If this identification is true, the for (γάρ, gar) connecting v. 14 with v. 13 really connects the thoughts of v. 14 with v. 12a. Thus vv. 14-15 are an explanation of why the Gentile without the law perishes. It is because he does have a law which shows that he is guilty."

"But Paul has talked about Gentiles possessing knowledge of God in 1:21 and in 2:15 he talks about them having the work of God written on their hearts. Because of this, and the fact that “by nature” can refer to inward realities (Gal 4:8), it seems best to take it with “do the things required by the law.” That is, there are times (cf. the whenever) “when the Gentiles by virtue of their nature do things required by the law.” Paul must be referring in some sense to the image of God in all men vis-à-vis their connection to Adam. The expression they are a law to themselves is another way of saying that the demands of the moral law are written within a man."
5. Study and Exposition of Romans 2:1-16
https://bible.org/seriespage/5-study-and-exposition-romans-21-16

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

I know this is a terribly vague question, but I wanted to include as many people as possible. In my understanding, whether you're a 4 or 5 point calvinist or whatever, you have to have the doctrine of God's election somewhere in your theology, right? That is to say, God chooses to save some people and damn others, or let others fall into damnation if you don't like the phrasing. And you need to have a true conversion experience in order to have at least some grounds to believe you are of the elect. And you need to be able to see a visible change in your heart that the holy spirit has sanctified you. But even so, only time will tell if you are holy enough to perservere in your faith.
My question is, then: How do you handle the anxiety of your possible damnation?
How do you make sure you are not self-righteous? What signs do you have to show you that you are on the right path?

And how do you treat other people, who are possibly dammed? Every christian confession needs to deal with thine neighbors for sure, and every denomination has its own mechanism for it. But if, for example, preaching the Gospel has no effect...in fact, even if it does, how do you approach those that clearly haven't been lucky enough, yet?

Would you, for example, have any advice for someone who's in a bad place, Christian or not, except for "look for a conversion experience and think really hard"? And what do YOU do when you're feeling depressed?

I realy hope I do not sound condescending here, there are parts of this doctrine I can really relate to, there is certain humility to it, but there are other parts where I can't even imagine how can people live with this. And still, I don't see large numbers of calvinists or reformed people commiting group suicide because they find their faith unbearable. So this may sound really stupid to some of you, but I actually find it pretty admirable. You're carrying a huge burden on your shoulders, and some of the sermons I've read, like "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards don't seem to make it any more bearable.

I don't believe resignation to God's will itself helps much, it is a desired result, but it must be hard sometimes, I imagine. And I don't think clinging to good works is the real solution either. At least for me, it wouldn't be enough to cope.

So, my questions are: How do you handle this anxiety, what do you do to get over it, and how do you help other people, christians or not, to work it out? What do pastors do when a member of the church approaches them about it?

I know it's a tough question, and I don't expect an overarching answer, but please tell me if you have any idea. I find it...mind-boggling.

God bless you

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Exactly!!!



I see!! I never thought about that....but then, you still don't know your faith WILL perservere until the Judgment day, isn't it? Christ, after all, promised salvations to those who will perservere, not those who won't. Isn't that a possible pitfall?


Yes, I think that should be the focus of every denomination, if they want to call themselves the Church. But as a matter of fact, in the past, if you asked a Calvinist pastor "How can I be assured of my faith?", he would ask you "Well, did you convert?" rather than "Were you baptised?". It was a shift away from sacraments towards one's experience, there can be no doubt about that. If there is any way to gain at least some assurance you're on the right track, it's the conversion and righteousness. According to calvinist doctrine, as I understand it. Am I wrong?

 

[BBAS 64]

Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I don't see that the context is that of believers, though.

In John 16:7-10, although Jesus is speaking to His disciples, clearly the reference to the Helper/Holy Spirit cannot mean that the Spirit is only sent to believers because the text goes on to say one purpose of the Spirit coming will be to... convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more (John 16:8-10)

Then if you notice in Romans 2 the chapter starts with addressing mankind in general...Therefore you are inexcusable, O man (Romans 2:1)...O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?(Romans 2:3) and in particular Jews who have the law and Gentiles who do not, yet Jew or Gentile all men have God's law written on their heart. I don't see that this passage is referring to Christians.

"2:14-15 The reference to Gentiles (ἔθνη, ethnē) points not to Gentiles who are Christians, but rather to Gentiles as people without the Mosaic law (and by implication unsaved). If this identification is true, the for (γάρ, gar) connecting v. 14 with v. 13 really connects the thoughts of v. 14 with v. 12a. Thus vv. 14-15 are an explanation of why the Gentile without the law perishes. It is because he does have a law which shows that he is guilty."

"But Paul has talked about Gentiles possessing knowledge of God in 1:21 and in 2:15 he talks about them having the work of God written on their hearts. Because of this, and the fact that “by nature” can refer to inward realities (Gal 4:8), it seems best to take it with “do the things required by the law.” That is, there are times (cf. the whenever) “when the Gentiles by virtue of their nature do things required by the law.” Paul must be referring in some sense to the image of God in all men vis-à-vis their connection to Adam. The expression they are a law to themselves is another way of saying that the demands of the moral law are written within a man."
5. Study and Exposition of Romans 2:1-16

Good day,

So sorry I missed it in John he is addressing believers, and the book of romans it written to a church which are believers (mostly Jews). Roman 1 is general revelation in creation which is suppressed by all men, and romans 2 as you rightly note refers to gentiles who have no the mosaic as the Jews do.

These are only believers because the writing of the law on the heart (New covenant) as opposed to laws written on stone (Old covenant).. I will write my law on their heart, and I will be their god, and they will be my people. all a work of God that has effects that can bee seen in even the gentiles.

The one in John is a bit more involved I have to go and read I over.

I hope that helps,

If I missing something let me know.

In Him,

Bill

 

[DeaconDean]

Good day,

So sorry I missed it in John he is addressing believers, and the book of romans it written to a church which are believers (mostly Jews). Roman 1 is general revelation in creation which is suppressed by all men, and romans 2 as you rightly note refers to gentiles who have no the mosaic as the Jews do.

These are only believers because the writing of the law on the heart (New covenant) as opposed to laws written on stone (Old covenant).. I will write my law on their heart, and I will be their god, and they will be my people. all a work of God that has effects that can bee seen in even the gentiles.

The one in John is a bit more involved I have to go and read I over.

I hope that helps,

If I missing something let me know.

In Him,

Bill

Since it was brought up, Bill, I personally would like your opinion on what I was told here:

According to scripture:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." -John 16:13-15 (KJV)

These three ideas go together. You quote John 16, but to whom is Jesus speaking when He promises that that "YOU" will be led into all truth? He is not speaking to any individual Christian. The word "you" in these verses means the Apostles. He was giving specific authority and gifts of understanding to the Apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is there the idea that the individual is greater, smarter, and more learned than the leadership of the congregation of believers (aka "church"). It is the Church which Jesus said that we are to listen to.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Is this the place to post on "election"? I hope so

I did not choose to be ''saved''. We were ''dead in trespasses and sins'' It is not in our human nature to ''choose'' to be saved. So God had to choose in mercy to save some.
We don't tell people that they might not be chosen but after one is ''born again" they will see that God in mercy choose before the foundation of the world to save them personally

My Dad was a very bad man running around back in the 20's doing nothing but bad things.
He knew that God saved him ONLY because of mercy mercy mercy. He did not choose himself to agree with God that he was a lost guilty sinner in need of a Saviour !!!

 

[msortwell]

How do I know I am reconciled unto God by the blood of Christ? It has NOTHING to do with my conduct.

I know I am reconciled with God by the blood of Christ because God's inerrant Word declares that whosoever believes the gospel is reconciled. It is definitely NOT because of any degree of holiness on my part. That is not what the scriptures declare - that would create exactly the challenge the first post asks about. It is one hundred percent because of the death of the sinless one on my behalf.

Do I always FEEL saved? No, occasionally I drift off and focus upon my certain personal unworthiness. But then, by God's grace, he brings me back to the truth that it not MY righteousness that matters in this context, but the perfect righteousness of Christ which is imputed to me - by His grace, I persevere - I continue in belief.

This is where my faith resides. This is faith that is credited as righteousness. Faith that is itself gifted by God.

And this faith assuredly fosters a change in behavior. How big of a change? I can't say. But there is some change. That is a certainty. But that change is NOT a source of confidence, it EVIDENCE of the confidence I have in Christ alone.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How do I know I am reconciled unto God by the blood of Christ? It has NOTHING to do with my conduct.

I know I am reconciled with God by the blood of Christ because God's inerrant Word declares that whosoever believes the gospel is reconciled. It is definitely NOT because of any degree of holiness on my part. That is not what the scriptures declare - that would create exactly the challenge the first post asks about. It is one hundred percent because of the death of the sinless one on my behalf.

Do I always FEEL saved? No, occasionally I drift off and focus upon my certain personal unworthiness. But then, by God's grace, he brings me back to the truth that it not MY righteousness that matters in this context, but the perfect righteousness of Christ which is imputed to me - by His grace, I persevere - I continue in belief.

This is where my faith resides. This is faith that is credited as righteousness. Faith that is itself gifted by God.

And this faith assuredly fosters a change in behavior. How big of a change? I can't say. But there is some change. That is a certainty. But that change is NOT a source of confidence, it EVIDENCE of the confidence I have in Christ alone.

Well stated. Thank you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Aha, I see. Well, recognising a bible doctrine as a real thing is something all Christians should do, for sure. But it's not like the other denominations don't recognise that the word "elect" is there, they just don't see the split as sharply, I think. Predestined from the beginning of time. What trips me up is the part of the election doctrine that says it's not really up to you. I mean, of course God causes it, he created us, he caused everything as far as I'm concened. Grace is a real thing. BUT my question is, how do you get around the fact that maybe you're simply on the other side? Does reading this forum qualify as a good sign? What sets apart a real Christian from a nominal Christian? How do I know I'm a true Christian? How do you know your faith is true?

How do you work out these kind of questions inside yourself?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't think the point of view claiming it either is, or is not up to you, is valid. The fact is simply that God's act upon us, the Gift of Faith, irrevocably does result in the act of will. Regeneration makes us different.

My will has always been subordinate to the will of the Creator of all things --I just didn't know it, nor recognize it as true. But now he has freed me to choose what I was made for --his will. And the funny thing, almost ridiculously funny thing, is that before regeneration, I could not choose him, simply because I never wanted to. And after regeneration, I can't help myself --I need him.