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I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.
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I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.Let's get back to the Story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.
The problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few (based on no conditions whatsoever) when He has the power to save them all. This would be wrong or immoral of God to do this because God desires the ultimate good for His creation.
But we are not animals. We were made in God's image and God gave us free will so that true love can exist within his creation. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will choice. Animals do not techincally have any reasoning to know about right and wrong like humans do. They may appear to know about morality sometimes, but it is not something that governs animals as a whole like humans.
I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.
Animals prove that God's creatures can make choices but not have free will. So just because Scripture talks about human choices does not prove humans have freewill.
You need to come up with some better arguments, instead of just injecting your assumptions into the Scriptures. Again i recommend you read this article very carefully & prayerfully, several times over, with an open mind that you may not have all the answers or be wrong about some things:
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_zender_absolute.pdf
True, except i would think Calvinists believe the Scriptures that God will save "many" (Rom.5:19), and not, as you said, "only a few". And that they would believe Christ will save all those He ransomed, which Jesus says is "many", not just a "few". Though Paul says He ransomed "all".
But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?
Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.
Free will is biblical. I already addressed this point. See my post here within this thread.
This is not the topic of the thread. But for your information, try looking up Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.
your logic is based in the worldly and the only information that you have. God interacts with man. This interaction is for our benefit and in ways that we can understand. He interacts differently to different people as well, based on their level of knowledge, but he has a baseline interaction with mankind as a whole.The point is that if Calvinism was true, then there would have been no need to make any threats so as to get the Ninevites to repent. In addition, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus essentially says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. It sounds like they are taking the credit for their repentance because they are rising up to judge this generation for something they are not doing. So repentance is not some kind of miracle event that is given to a person by God when He feels like it.
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it isnt forced salvation. It is salvation by Grace. We humans dont know what we dont know. God reveals himself to mankind and blesses them with salvation. Anyone who has stood before God and understood that he is now saved and will receive eternal life, knows that he was dead in sin and would have never come to know God on his own. Such people are thankful to God, because without his grace, they were doomed.Then go to the other commentaries I mentioned, or look at Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. (By the way, I don't believe that Calvin, as you said, just left the issue unaddressed; he may not have addressed it to your particular liking or satisfaction, but that is hardly the same as not even addressing it. Or, if he did truly did not address it, perhaps that's evidence that you, as many here have suggested, are reading too much into the word "relent." Perhaps what you need is a lexical study, not a theological one.)
You need to read more Reformed literature rather than getting your conception of Reformed theology from nitwits on places like Christian Forums.
From your post:
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"
Again, animals can choose, but have no libertarian freewill. So this does not support your conclusion that humans have libertarian freewill.
Your purpose of this thread & you're purpose in some others is your desire to expose Calvinism on these exact points & that you think your view is superior to Calvinism in these regards:
But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?
Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
your logic is based in the worldly and the only information that you have. God interacts with man. This interaction is for our benefit and in ways that we can understand. He interacts differently to different people as well, based on their level of knowledge, but he has a baseline interaction with mankind as a whole.
Choice and predestination walk hand in hand without conflict. both are true simultaneously. To think that such things are mutually exclusive is where ignorance comes in. Any logical argument based on the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive, while seeming logical, is not logical at all.
Read first Ephesians. Also, consider how king Herods choices played directly into Gods Prophetic hands.
If the Ninevites would have repented anyway, so therefore Jonah didnt need to preach is an invalid point as this was Gods whole teaching to man, for Jonah to do it and for him and us to learn from it. Also, if I take your logic to the extreme, there is no point for man to do anything at all, because its already written in stone what would happen. The fact is that we are called to do things by God. Not for Gods benefit, but for ours. We are the ones learning and he allows us to help one another along the way. God wants us to do this by choice. Each choice leading us directly into our predestination, one way or another.
Do you believe in Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement?
According to a Calvinism website: They define these as:
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Source:
The answer is "Of Course to the first one and "moot point" for the second one as unbelievers do not receive salvation. This second issue, In my opinion is a non issue and I think that people are hung up on semantics and other irrelevancies, creating an issue where there is none. Do believers have salvation? Yes. Were they chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. Do unbelievers have salvation? No. Did Christ die for their sins? Yes and no. Its a flawed question. Did Christ die for sin, so that we may be saved? Yes. Is everyone therefore saved? No.
Christ created the individual, giving them all of the potential merit, but salvation is not based on the merit or deeds of an individual. Salvation is all Grace. No one earns it, or could earn it. No one has faith. Faith comes through the intercession of God into the lives of men.
Remember this principal: All things are to God, For God, but by God. In this way, God is all in all.
In heaven, the Angels sing to God. The song is For God, but the song is also BY God. Meaning that he is the author and instigator of the song. He is the one singing and the only way the Angels know "The Words" to begin with. In this way, God is All in All.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
Once you answer "yes" or "no" to the above two questions, then we can begin to address what you have written.
The answer is "Of Course to the first one and "moot point" for the second one as unbelievers do not receive salvation. This second issue, In my opinion is a non issue and I think that people are hung up on semantics and other irrelevancies, creating an issue where there is none. Do believers have salvation? Yes. Were they chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. Do unbelievers have salvation? No. Did Christ die for their sins? Yes and no. Its a flawed question. Did Christ die for sin, so that we may be saved? Yes. Is everyone therefore saved? No.
Christ created the individual, giving them all of the potential merit, but salvation is not based on the merit or deeds of an individual. Salvation is all Grace. No one earns it, or could earn it. No one has faith. Faith comes through the intercession of God into the lives of men.
Remember this principal: All things are to God, For God, but by God. In this way, God is all in all.
In heaven, the Angels sing to God. The song is For God, but the song is also BY God. Meaning that he is the author and instigator of the song. He is the one singing and the only way the Angels know "The Words" to begin with. In this way, God is All in All.
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