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how do adventists view of the trinity?

EastCoastRemnant

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Sorry Hog, not trying to put words in your mouth... :oops:

This is my take from what I have studied, read and have been led to understand... (not saying it's the fully correct understanding). In the time eternally past, God the Father, who is Spirit, begot the Son, who was from himself but distinct in His office of responsibilities. The Son is both Spirit and flesh. The Son was given the power of Creation by the Father and to lead the angelic host in worship of Himself and the Father. I believe, that the Spirit is, as the Son is, from the Father as God the Father is Spirit, subject to the Will of both Father and Son for their purpose... the Spirit can be said to be the very character of God the Father and by extension, the character of the Son and, in sonship through faith in Christ, can be our very character, or rather, the Father's character fully revealed in us through His Spirit.

Does that make sense cause it is a convoluted thing to understand? As I said, my faith and knowledge is ever growing and at the moment at least, this is how I understand the Godhead. There is no good earthly analogy of it, so words and conceptualization is difficult to comprehend.
 
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Hoghead1

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Sorry Hog, not trying to put words in your mouth... :oops:

This is my take from what I have studied, read and have been led to understand... (not saying it's the fully correct understanding). In the time eternally past, God the Father, who is Spirit, begot the Son, who was from himself but distinct in His office of responsibilities. The Son is both Spirit and flesh. The Son was given the power of Creation by the Father and to lead the angelic host in worship of Himself and the Father. I believe, that the Spirit is, as the Son is, from the Father as God the Father is Spirit, subject to the Will of both Father and Son for their purpose... the Spirit can be said to be the very character of God the Father and by extension, the character of the Son and, in sonship through faith in Christ, can be our very character, or rather, the Father's character fully revealed in us through His Spirit.

Does that make sense cause it is a convoluted thing to understand? As I said, my faith and knowledge is ever growing and at the moment at least, this is how I understand the Godhead. There is no good earthly analogy of it, so words and conceptualization is difficult to comprehend.
No problemo. The Trinity is one of the most difficult concepts in Christianity. Some attribute that to the mystery of God. I don't. I attribute that to muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers. But that is another story.

The immediate problem I have with what you are saying, is that the Holy Spirit appears to be a common essence shared by the Persons and yet also one of teh Persons. Also, you, as do many, fall into subordinationism here. Strictly speaking teh Father is God, the principium and fons of it all, The Boss of bosses. Hence, the Son and Spirit appear as lesser beings, lieutenants send to do the Boss's bidding. That is quite common in traditional Trinitarian formulas, by the way.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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No problemo. The Trinity is one of the most difficult concepts in Christianity. Some attribute that to the mystery of God. I don't. I attribute that to muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers. But that is another story.

The immediate problem I have with what you are saying, is that the Holy Spirit appears to be a common essence shared by the Persons and yet also one of teh Persons. Also, you, as do many, fall into subordinationism here. Strictly speaking teh Father is God, the principium and fons of it all, The Boss of bosses. Hence, the Son and Spirit appear as lesser beings, lieutenants send to do the Boss's bidding. That is quite common in traditional Trinitarian formulas, by the way.
I don't know how you can come to any other conclusion given the evidence of scripture we have? Jesus is quoted many different ways being subservient to thes Father and His Will. And the Spirit is said to never speak for itself but only the Father and Son....
 
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reddogs

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Yes, however, there was considerable controversy over her position, over whether she was truly Trinitarian or not. There is no doubt about that.
Not really, it just was not something she was given and wrote on till a few years down the road, so some people try to say she did not believe in it.
 
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reddogs

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Christ's baptism shows us that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate entities, not the same with different titles as your example suggests. I think the example of the family serves well to illustrate... Mr. Smith, Mrs. Smith and Master Smith. All different individuals but all Smiths. The example also coincides with the analogy of Christ and His church (bride and bridegroom)
I use the water illustration myself, a mist/gas, or liquid or solid/ice......
 
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reddogs

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OK, but how is your view anything but tritheism? There are three unique personalities, three gods. What they all have in common is Deity or divinity. That's like saying there are three men. What they al have in common is humanity. But there are still three men.
The mystery of the GodHead is something we humans have not been able to fully grasp, but when we get there it will be as plain as day.......
 
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reddogs

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Yes, I do need you to tell me that. And there is a very good reason why. Often, the unity of the Trinity is thought of in arithmetic, not organic, terms. Hence, the members end up being described identically. Here, you might want to check out Augustine's psychological model of the Trinity, which makes this quite plain. Here, you are doing the same thing. If they are all of one mind, all think alike, etc., then how are they different, how are there three?
They are one, but yet they are distinct, so Christ could have done His own will when He was on earth and being tempted, yes He could sinned but did not. And He relied on the Father to overcome...hard to grasp.
 
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reddogs

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No problemo. The Trinity is one of the most difficult concepts in Christianity. Some attribute that to the mystery of God. I don't. I attribute that to muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers. But that is another story.

The immediate problem I have with what you are saying, is that the Holy Spirit appears to be a common essence shared by the Persons and yet also one of teh Persons. Also, you, as do many, fall into subordinationism here. Strictly speaking teh Father is God, the principium and fons of it all, The Boss of bosses. Hence, the Son and Spirit appear as lesser beings, lieutenants send to do the Boss's bidding. That is quite common in traditional Trinitarian formulas, by the way.
You have to watch out. Many of the 'church fathers' were just extending pagan Greek thought or philosophy or worse very subtle Gnosticism...
 
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reddogs

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Now here is further studies on the GodHead from Adventist lessons...
"..In the doctrine of the Trinity, we do not find three different divine roles displayed by one Person (that is modalism). Nor are there three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism orpolytheism). The one God (“He”) is also, and equally, “They,” and “They” are always together, always closely cooperating. The Holy Spirit executes the will of both Father and Son, which is also His will. This is the truth that God reveals about Himself all through the Bible.

Some people struggle with the divinity of Christ because of how, while here in the flesh, Jesus had subordinated Himself to the will of the Father. Many see this as “proof” that He was somehow less than the Father. This reality, however, does not reflect the inner structure of the Godhead. This subordination reflects, instead, how the plan of salvation was to operate. Jesus was to come into humanity, becoming “obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Phil. 2:8, ESV). Also, “though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Heb. 5:8, 9). These statements reveal that the subordinate role Jesus played resulted from the Incarnation, which was crucial to the plan of salvation. They don’t prove that He is anything other than fully divine and eternal.

“‘His name shall be called Immanuel, . . . God with us.’ ‘The light of the knowledge of the glory of God’ is seen ‘in the face of Jesus Christ.’ From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was ‘the image of God,’ the image of His greatness and majesty, ‘the outshining of His glory.’ It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world.”—Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 19.

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Gen. 1:26).


Understanding how inspiration works, however important, is only a means to an end, and that end is to know God. A deep understanding of how the Bible was written, or even a deep understanding of the truths revealed in it, mean nothing if we don’t know the Lord for ourselves (John 17:3). And one thing that the Bible explicitly affirms about the Lord is His oneness.

Read Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29. What crucial truth is found in these texts?

The expression in the Bible about the oneness of God precludes any idea of many gods. There is one God only. However, the total picture we get from the Bible is that there is an inner “content” to Him, even in His oneness.

Read Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7; John 1:1-3, 18; 20:28; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 28:19. How do these texts begin to clarify the inner reality of God?

The Old Testament’s suggestion of plurality provides hints about the nature of the inner being of God. When we couple this with the New Testament’s statement about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, we start to realize that there’s a lot about God’s nature that we don’t fully understand and probably never will. The triune aspect of God is one mystery, among many, with which we will have to learn to live. The information that the Bible gives about God, including His three-part nature, is not provided in order for us to engage in speculative philosophizing but in order to further our understanding of His activities, especially His redemptive work on our behalf as the great controversy unfolds and is finally ended.

John 8:58 reads: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.”

However clear the Bible is that God is one (echad), the Bible also talks about the plurality of Persons. Scholars and Bible students through the millennia have seen in many Old Testament texts powerful evidence of the plural nature of God. This truth, as with many others, is more fully revealed in the New Testament.

Read Genesis 1:26, 27. How is God’s plurality revealed here?

This pairing of plural and singular when referring to God also occurs in Genesis 11:7, 8 at the building of the tower of Babel. God Himself speaks again. The “Lord” is mentioned, yet He speaks as one of a group (“Us”).

Read Isaiah 6:8. In what ways do you see the plurality of the “Lord” revealed there, as well?

In the New Testament, how does Peter’s sermon at Pentecost exalt Jesus within the Godhead? (See Acts 2:33.) Peter, a devout monotheistic Jew, and thus a believer in One God, proclaims the full divinity of Christ, now in heaven. In his letter to the Jewish exiles of the dispersion, Peter again communicates evidence of the triune nature of God. (See 1 Pet. 1:1–3.)

The Gospel of John gives direct and conscious attention to the unique nature of God. John seems to be fully aware of the oneness, yet “threeness,” of God. 1

Read Christ’s words in John 14–16 and count the number of references to the three Persons of God. How do these passages help us understand the reality of this important truth?

This passage in the Gospel of John is the most extensive concentration of references to the coequal, three-Person God. Here the inter-dynamics among the Trinity come through repeatedly. The doctrine of the Trinity, far from being a piece of abstract speculation, is the inevitable conclusion that comes from a systematic survey of Scripture.

Of special importance in this context is the deity of Christ. If Christ were not fully God, then all we have is the Lord shifting the punishment for our sins from one party to another, as opposed to taking them upon Himself. The whole point of the gospel is that it was God Himself on the cross bearing the sins of the world. Anything short of this would denude the atonement of everything that made it so powerful and effective.

Think about it: if Jesus were merely a created being, and not fully God, how could He—as a creature—bear the full wrath of God against sin? What created being, no matter how exalted, could save humanity from the violation of God’s holy law?

Were Jesus not divine, then God’s law would not be as sacred as God Himself, because the violation of it would be something that a created being could atone for. The law only would be as sacred as that created being, and not as sacred as the Creator. Sin itself would not be so bad if all it took were the death of a creature and not the Creator to atone for it. The fact that it took God Himself, in the Person of Christ, to remedy sin presents powerful evidence of just how serious sin is.

Also, our assurance of salvation through what Christ has done for us—and not through our own works—comes from the fact that God Himself paid the penalty for our sins. What could we do to add to that? Were Christ created, maybe we could add something. But with God, the Creator, sacrificing Himself for our sins . . . it’s all but blasphemous to believe anything we do could supplement that sacrifice. Thus, were Christ not divine, the atonement would be fatally compromised...."
 
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BobRyan

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how does the SDA church view the trinity? is it the same as the rest of the Christian world or does it differ? and if so how?

thank you all for helping me out so far

God bless you

Pretty much the same.
 
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BobRyan

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this link will show you what the majority of the founders and early adventist believed regarding the trinity
http://www.trinitytruth.org/

Ellen White was raised Methodist and was trinitarian --and was instrumental in the 1880's and 1890's and getting the SDA church fully focused on being trinitarian in her statements about the "Holy Spirit as the third PERSON of the Godhead"

Very good post on this point -- Mar 21, 2016 #17
 
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BobRyan

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I just want to point out that discussion of the Trinity according to the rules here on Christian Forums, only is allowed in the “Controversial Theology” section.

I must admit that I’ve sometimes voiced my opinion if the mods seem to have tolerated a thread discussing the trinity. (For instance, if a mod contributes to such a discussion, I assume that it is okay.)

However, there is a sticky here in the adventist sub-forum specifically asking us to refrain from discussing the Trinity, so I think we should respect this. See http://www.christianforums.com/threads/announcement-discussion-of-the-trinity.7237783/

This doesn’t mean that I’m afraid of discussing this topic, personally I’ve spent much time debating anti-trinitarians and I’m aware of their arguments.

Like it or not, belief in the Trinity is one of the Adventist Church’s 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Adventists who argue against the trinity do not represent official adventist theology, but espouse a divergent view held by a minority. https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

And they are a tiny sliver rather than the voted positions, the church in general session etc. As such we may say that "everyone has free will" -- but we may not argue that such tiny segments of ANY denomination are coloring any part of the denomination other than their own tiny segment.
 
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BobRyan

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Hence, the Son and Spirit appear as lesser beings, lieutenants send to do the Boss's bidding. That is quite common in traditional Trinitarian formulas, by the way.

The idea that order and hierarchy also mean "lesser person" or "lesser being" is something that Germany was proposing in WWII and is something evolutionism also suggests --

But in the Last Supper Christ argues that he who would be greatest among you -- let him be servant of all.
 
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reddogs

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Ellen White was raised Methodist and was trinitarian --and was instrumental in the 1880's and 1890's and getting the SDA church fully focused on being trinitarian in her statements about the "Holy Spirit as the third PERSON of the Godhead"

Very good post on this point -- Mar 21, 2016 #17
Good to see you Bob, hope things have been well and life is full of Gods blessings..
 
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reddogs

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No... some may have later in life turned from what they had studied and believed, but the majority, I believe, did not.

Here's an excerpt from a good site on the issue...


Here's the link...
http://www.trinitytruth.org/adventistpioneersandthetrinity.html
All the main leaders were anti Trinity/Catholic but Ellen White turned it around...

"Anyone knowledgable about Seventh-day Adventist history, however, knows that many of the SDA pioneers held Arian or semi-Arian views. In his article, “The Doctrine of the Trinity Among Adventists,” Dr. Gerhard Pfandl, associate director of the Biblical Research Institute at the General Conference of SDAs, articulated the situation accurately when he wrote:

While the Seventh-day Adventist Church today espouses the doctrine of the Trinity, this has not always been so. The evidence from a study of Adventist history indicates that from the earliest years of our church to the 1890s a whole stream of writers took an Arian or semi-Arian position (page 1).

Why did many early SDA pioneers espouse Arian views? How did they eventually move away from Arianism and semi-Arianism to the biblical position regarding Jesus Christ? For those interested in Adventist history on this subject, the following sources are indispensible:

All of the above studies demonstrate that Ellen White played a major role in moving the church away from Arian views regarding Jesus Christ..."
 
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reddogs

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Now on the Holy Spirit, you have to really dig in scripture and seek to understand, here is more from the Adventist lesson...

If God can be “one,” with the two Persons of the Father and the Son, adding a third Person to the Godhead should not particularly add more difficulty. We are talking here about the Holy Spirit.1

Read Genesis 1:2. What does this tell us about the role of the Holy Spirit, who appears so early in the biblical record.

How does Matthew 28:19 draw attention to the three members of the Godhead?

Three Persons of the Godhead are mentioned when Jesus instructs how new believers are to be baptized. Indeed, this baptismal “formula” is still used in most Christian baptisms today. The person who has chosen to follow Jesus is baptized into the “Name” (singular, not plural, in the Greek), though three Persons are included. Three Divine Beings are viewed as One.

At the baptism of Jesus, all three Persons of the Trinity appear together. Read Mark’s dramatic description of that baptism (Mark 1:9–11). Mark’s description of the heavens as “parting” (vs. 10, NKJV) would be better translated “torn open” (NIV). Mark draws attention to all three Members of the Divine Godhead in an awesome revelation of God that affects even nature itself.

As with Jesus, the work of the Holy Spirit is linked with and attributed to the actions of God. Review the following portrayals of the Holy Spirit’s actions:

1. When announcing the birth of Christ, the angel tells Mary that her Child will be called “holy” because the Holy Spirit will come upon her (Luke 1:35).

2. Jesus claimed that the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him, anointing Him to preach (Luke 4:18).

3. He also claimed to be driving out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28).

4. The Spirit, who is to carry on Christ’s work after His departure, is another Counselor of the same kind (John 14:16).

5. Jesus breathed out the Holy Spirit upon His followers (John 20:22).

6. New Christians will have both the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:17) and also the Spirit of Christ (Gal. 2:20, Col. 1:27).

Christ and the Holy Spirit are intimately linked with each other’s ministry. Moreover, there are biblical references that identify the Holy Spirit as God. Read Acts 5:1–11
 
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BobRyan

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Good to see you Bob, hope things have been well and life is full of Gods blessings..

Thanks - been over on the GT forum and the evolution and Sabbath forums of CF -- but nice to be here as well. :)
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, I havent seen anything in her writing at the start or before the Desire of Ages period where she supports any Arian or Semi-Arian views, have you come across anything?

True - she was raised Methodist - and never published anything on that subject that a methodist could not sign up for. She was always Trinitarian. But she does not come out fully attacking some of the views published by her husband -- until after he dies.

However it looks like even James started to step back from his own anti-trinitarian arguments before he died.
 
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Dave-W

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I took a quick look at some of the writings of EJ Waggoner. He seems to not state clearly if he is trinitarian or not. He did say that Jesus was the "comforter" promised in John 14.16; thus diminishing the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

“Jesus is the Comforter. “If any man sin, we have a Comforter with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”(1John 2:1 r.v., margin.)(EJ Waggoner The Everlasting Covenant Page 302)


I have been interested in his teachings the last couple of years. He died in my dad's hometown 13 years before dad was born. So far (even though the spelling of our last name is identical) I have not found if we are actually related.
 
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