LDS How did the Mormon Jesus get his Exaltation?

[Rescued One]

Why would God tell you to run, and tell me it is true?

Again, we will not know the answer to that until you enter the spirit world at death.

But again, I will say that if you are right, I will be OK, because I am a believer in Jesus and have been baptized of the HS. Therefore according to your beliefs, both you and I will enter into heaven and enjoy eternal life.

But if I am right, and there really is more to the salvation process, you will not like your position in the eternities.

See you in the spirit world.

No, when I'm resurrected I will have eternal life because my answer to prayer came from the true God and you will be wondering where your three gods are.

 

[Rescued One]

Me too. I suspect God said the same thing to many of them, but they did not listen and tossed aside the warnings as some sort of message from Satan?

I sadly believe you are right.

"Satan’s tactic is to 'turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded and understand not the things which are prepared for them' (D&C 78:10). He creates a smoke screen that obscures our vision and diverts our attention."
The Voice of the Spirit - ensign

 

[Ironhold]

Me too. I suspect God said the same thing to many of them, but they did not listen and tossed aside the warnings as some sort of message from Satan?

Alternatively, it could be that they got tired of all the self-professed "Good Christians" threatening their lives for being the "wrong" form of Christianity and so decided that they wanted to be far, far away from any form of Christianity that would have that person as a member.

 

[mmksparbud]

Alternatively, it could be that they got tired of all the self-professed "Good Christians" threatening their lives for being the "wrong" form of Christianity and so decided that they wanted to be far, far away from any form of Christianity that would have that person as a member.

And so the Jews feel the same way. Persecuted by so called Christians, they are not very inclined to hear the message. Does that make the message any less the truth??

 

[BigDaddy4]

The Truth can be uncomfortable for some/many. Does not make it any less truthful.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ouch! That seems painful..

 

[Ironhold]

And so the Jews feel the same way. Persecuted by so called Christians, they are not very inclined to hear the message. Does that make the message any less the truth??

Jesus commanded his followers to be lights unto the world. Paul followed it up by noting that no matter how much "truth" a person had, if they did not share it in love then their message was no more than loud music.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus commanded his followers to be lights unto the world. Paul followed it up by noting that no matter how much "truth" a person had, if they did not share it in love then their message was no more than loud music.

Not exactly what he said.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

It does not say the message is nothing. It says the person that speaks it without love is nothing. Big difference. The truth of the message remains, but if not given in love, the person becomes nothing. If it is done in an offensive manner it casts a shadow on the message. The message itself is still what God said is truth, but the lack of love diminishes the person proclaiming it. If I hold a knife to someone's throat and say that God is love, it is the truth, but the person has made others think badly of the whole message and the person delivering that message, is not approved of by God and is nothing in His sight.

 

[Ironhold]

Point still stands though that mainline Christianity itself - and the often vile displays people show us "in God's name" - is one of the biggest recruitment tools the LDS faith has.

Once people see how outrageous folks can be when we're brought up, they want nothing more to do with that group and instead become more curious about us.

 

[Rescued One]

It does not say the message is nothing. It says the person that speaks it without love is nothing. Big difference. The truth of the message remains, but if not given in love, the person becomes nothing. If it is done in an offensive manner it casts a shadow on the message. The message itself is still what God said is truth, but the lack of love diminishes the person proclaiming it. If I hold a knife to someone's throat and say that God is love, it is the truth, but the person has made others think badly of the whole message and the person delivering that message, is not approved of by God and is nothing in His sight.

And a true Christian would only share truth because of love for the lost. He/she would talk about the truth as opposed to becoming angry at the person he/she is conversing with.

 

[Rescued One]

The Truth can be uncomfortable for some/many. Does not make it any less truthful.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ouch! That seems painful..

 

[mmksparbud]

Point still stands though that mainline Christianity itself - and the often vile displays people show us "in God's name" - is one of the biggest recruitment tools the LDS faith has.

Once people see how outrageous folks can be when we're brought up, they want nothing more to do with that group and instead become more curious about us.

Very well could be---you know what they say---"Curiosity killed the cat." It is prayed for that those who end up believing the half truths and downright lies of JS will eventually wise up. When hearing about any group, people generally do become curious and want to know more about it---Charles Manson had the same affect, and, at first, so did Jim Jones. The half truths of the snake on Eve did work-- the end result was not pretty. That is why all truth is held up to the light of the scriptures, you do not hold the scriptures up to the "light" of the theories. Mormonism does just exactly what the snake did---say that the words of God are not what you think they said. They discredit the bible just enough to get their theories in claiming them to be corrupt instead of their theories being corrupt. Eve was led to doubt what God said, instead of her trusting the word of God and then distrusting what the snake had said. It is an effective ploy.

 

[Rescued One]

Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that because of His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ will be our Judge:

"The Atonement was a selfless act of infinite, eternal consequence, arduously earned alone, by the Son of God. Through it the Savior broke the bonds of death. It justifies our finally being judged by the Redeemer. …

“Jesus Christ possessed merits that no other being could possibly have. He was a God, Jehovah, before His birth in Bethlehem. … Our Master lived a perfect, sinless life and therefore was free from the demands of justice. He is perfect in every attribute, including love, compassion, patience, obedience, forgiveness, and humility. …

“I testify that with unimaginable suffering and agony at an incalculable price, the Savior earned His right to be our Redeemer, our Intermediary, our Final Judge” (“The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2006, 42).
Chapter 23: John 5–7

 

[Rescued One]

Very well could be---you know what they say---"Curiosity killed the cat." It is prayed for that those who end up believing the half truths and downright lies of JS will eventually wise up. When hearing about any group, people generally do become curious and want to know more about it---Charles Manson had the same affect, and, at first, so did Jim Jones. The half truths of the snake on Eve did work-- the end result was not pretty. That is why all truth is held up to the light of the scriptures, you do not hold the scriptures up to the "light" of the theories. Mormonism does just exactly what the snake did---say that the words of God are not what you think they said. They discredit the bible just enough to get their theories in claiming them to be corrupt instead of their theories being corrupt. Eve was led to doubt what God said, instead of her trusting the word of God and then distrusting what the snake had said. It is an effective ploy.

People who are outrageous (I'm asuming he means misinformed and rude) might not be Christians or might be without having learned what it means to walk in the light.

 

[Ironhold]

People who are outrageous (I'm asuming he means misinformed and rude) might not be Christians or might be without having learned what it means to walk in the light.

I've talked about this before, but it would appear some folks missed seeing it.

About a decade ago, I was on another religion discussion website.

One of the posters was someone who had left the LDS faith. She mentioned that she had chosen to leave after studying the works of several critics of the church, including J. Edward Decker. When we explained to her - at length - that Decker's lengthy history of telling lies for his own ends had led to his being blacklisted by even a number of other critics of the church, she agreed to go back and re-evaluate what she had read in his material.

A while later, she came back and admitted that after researching things out, she came to the conclusion that yes, the material in Decker's works was false and that she would be re-evaluating the church.

In response, one of the posters, a self-avowed "Good Christian" who claimed to be a minister, flipped right out. He posted an open letter to the woman's husband ordering him to use "any means necessary" to stop her from rejoining the church, saying that if she rejoined the church it would mean he - the husband - was a failure as a Christian.

Her final post on that forum was her saying that her husband had seen the open letter.

Both she and her husband were now seeking to be baptized into the LDS faith because of the sheer amount of hatred he displayed; they wanted no part of any denomination that would allow this person to be a minister.

 

[mmksparbud]

I've talked about this before, but it would appear some folks missed seeing it.

About a decade ago, I was on another religion discussion website.

One of the posters was someone who had left the LDS faith. She mentioned that she had chosen to leave after studying the works of several critics of the church, including J. Edward Decker. When we explained to her - at length - that Decker's lengthy history of telling lies for his own ends had led to his being blacklisted by even a number of other critics of the church, she agreed to go back and re-evaluate what she had read in his material.

A while later, she came back and admitted that after researching things out, she came to the conclusion that yes, the material in Decker's works was false and that she would be re-evaluating the church.

In response, one of the posters, a self-avowed "Good Christian" who claimed to be a minister, flipped right out. He posted an open letter to the woman's husband ordering him to use "any means necessary" to stop her from rejoining the church, saying that if she rejoined the church it would mean he - the husband - was a failure as a Christian.

Her final post on that forum was her saying that her husband had seen the open letter.

Both she and her husband were now seeking to be baptized into the LDS faith because of the sheer amount of hatred he displayed; they wanted no part of any denomination that would allow this person to be a minister.

We do get what you are saying. Because of the unchristian remarks and actions of some people, the truth of God is blighted and falsehood remain, for that they will have to stand before God and pay for. During the Crusades Christians actions and remarks to Muslims turned many away from Christianity---likewise, burning the Jews in ovens isn't goin g to win any converts to Christianity. That, however, does not mean that Christianity itself was wrong in the message they had--it means those people did not convey it's message, they conveyed the opposite of that message and before God, they are not Christians. They will be amongst those that:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They said the words, but they never knew God, just about Him and they never acted the part of Christian because God was not in them: That is just the problem with most---they never really get to know Him, just about Him and therefore---God will not know them. They drove people away from His truth instead of bringing them to it. God's truth is still His truth, it's the bearers of it that were wrong--0not the message itself. Can you not get what we are saying?? It is not a one way street--0-do this, believe that, (we tend to forget--Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.) Satan and his demons know exactly what the bible says, they know all about God, they had been in His presence once---they do not want the truth to be in the heart of believers. They want believers to be like them----0knowing the facts, but not loving the God of those facts. One way of not having people know God is to distort the truth of what the bible says. Obscuring who God is means they never get to know the real God of the bible and if you do not Him who God really is--He will not know you.
Believe and you will be saved is more involved than believing some facts. It means a change of heart-- believing the truth is having that truth transform the heart into reflecting the character of God. That is true "believe and you will be saved."
Teaching a false character of God is tantamount to teaching against God. To believe in a God that you expect means He will give you power, fulfillment of lusts, a way to gain status is to believe in a false God---He will not know you. That is the danger of placing the theories of men above the word of God.

You do not authenticate a true Da Vinci by believing in a forgery. The only way to tell a forgery from the original is to know the original. They know the brushstrokes, the paint colors, the way he signs his name, the way he paints, how he likes to depict things. The know the mind. The forgery is held up agents those truths. You don't take a forgery and look at the similarities---and try to see it as an original. You look at the original and see the differences from it. What Satan tries to do, is to change the facts of the original so people believe in a forgery. Thus the truth of the original is wiped out and the holder of it is left with something that is worthless.

 

[Rescued One]

We are here to debate Mormonism not to criticize people. Why would a person constantly look for the motes in others' eyes and not consider the beam that could be in his own?

John 8
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

This is the topic if the thread:

Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that because of His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ will be our Judge:

"The Atonement was a selfless act of infinite, eternal consequence, arduously earned alone, by the Son of God. Through it the Savior broke the bonds of death. It justifies our finally being judged by the Redeemer. …

“Jesus Christ possessed merits that no other being could possibly have. He was a God, Jehovah, before His birth in Bethlehem. … Our Master lived a perfect, sinless life and therefore was free from the demands of justice. He is perfect in every attribute, including love, compassion, patience, obedience, forgiveness, and humility. …

“I testify that with unimaginable suffering and agony at an incalculable price, the Savior earned His right to be our Redeemer, our Intermediary, our Final Judge” (“The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2006, 42).
Chapter 23: John 5–7

I would sincerely appreciate that my friends discuss the topic. Please. If someone wants to start a thread to discuss the behavior of imperfect humans I don't think it fits the category of non-Christian religions.

 

[Peter1000]

We are here to debate Mormonism not to criticize people. Why would a person constantly look for the motes in others' eyes and not consider the beam that could be in his own?

John 8
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

This is the topic if the thread:


I would sincerely appreciate that my friends discuss the topic. Please. If someone wants tio start a thread to discuss the behavior of imperfect humans I don't think it fits the category of non-Christian religions.

Mormons do believe that Jesus has always existed with the divine nature of God, but we also believe he had to show by his actions that he was worthy of his status as God the Son, IOW he earned his God status.

Mainline Christians believe Jesus has always existed as God the Son. He did not have to earn his Godly status, but was given his Godly status from God the Father.

This we both know: by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)

Jesus, God the Son, is the God that was seen by Israel. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt and the God that shepherded them into Israel and gave them that land. The God that spoke to all the OT prophets up to Malachi. 500 years later this God of Israel became a man and took on flesh.

That is why we can call him our Lord and our God. He is. He created us and he shepherds us, and he saved us.

Can you tell me why it matters whether Jesus was given his Godly status or he earned his Godly status?

 

[Peter1000]

We are here to debate Mormonism not to criticize people. Why would a person constantly look for the motes in others' eyes and not consider the beam that could be in his own?

John 8
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

This is the topic if the thread:


I would sincerely appreciate that my friends discuss the topic. Please. If someone wants tio start a thread to discuss the behavior of imperfect humans I don't think it fits the category of non-Christian religions.

Can you respond to my post #617 and answer the last question. I am interested in what you think.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons do believe that Jesus has always existed with the divine nature of God, but we also believe he had to show by his actions that he was worthy of his status as God the Son, IOW he earned his God status.

Mainline Christians believe Jesus has always existed as God the Son. He did not have to earn his Godly status, but was given his Godly status from God the Father.

This we both know: by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)

Jesus, God the Son, is the God that was seen by Israel. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt and the God that shepherded them into Israel and gave them that land. The God that spoke to all the OT prophets up to Malachi. 500 years later this God of Israel became a man and took on flesh.

Mormonism is a creation of a false teacher. The lies that Joseph Smith taught are an abomination to God!

You teach that there are multiple Gods and that Jehovah/Jesus said,
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

That is why we can call him our Lord and our God. He is. He created us and he shepherds us, and he saved us.

Can you tell me why it matters whether Jesus was given his Godly status or he earned his Godly status?

God is not a being who earned His godhood; He is not a brother of Satan.

Joseph Smith lied in the King Follett Sermon. Truth matters.

In the beginning Jesus was God!

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Mormons do believe that Jesus has always existed with the divine nature of God, but we also believe he had to show by his actions that he was worthy of his status as God the Son, IOW he earned his God status.

Mormons teach that humans are Jesus' siblings, though only gods in embryo and if we obey Mormonism we can earn godhood and become Jesus' children.

Mainline Christians believe Jesus has always existed as God the Son. He did not have to earn his Godly status, but was given his Godly status from God the Father.

Jesus was God in the very beginning --- one with the Father and Holy Spirit.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This we both know:

You've already erred. I don't believe Joseph Smith's lies.

by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)

Jesus, God the Son, is the God that was seen by Israel. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt and the God that shepherded them into Israel and gave them that land. The God that spoke to all the OT prophets up to Malachi. 500 years later this God of Israel became a man and took on flesh.

That is why we can call him our Lord and our God. He is. He created us and he shepherds us, and he saved us.

Can you tell me why it matters whether Jesus was given his Godly status or he earned his Godly status?

Because Joseph Smith lied:

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

"These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

"I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me."
The King Follett Sermon