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How did the eye evolve? Answer here.

Baggins

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correction: "Here is an interesting article on PBS.com for the answers of how the eye COULD HAVE evolved:" . All I see in this article is "could, would, maybe, possibly, should..." and then a drastic change into a "did, was, is..." without anything showing me any evidence or telling me this has been observed and/or proven beyond reasonable doubt. That's not to say that evolutionists don't claim such evidence, but just to point out the jump in conclusions...

The argument includes that there is a purpose for the eye, a design objective, a reason for why everything is where it is and the way it is, that there are limitations imposed by the Designer on the organ as a whole.

evolutionary theory in a nutshell

As expected...

"Errors" according to our limited knowledge?

Highest degree of quality whilst keeping in mind other limitations imposed in the design and the intent. That would make a better designer, in my opinion, one who sees the big picture.

That is, a human engineer. But not only that, there have been arguments made that the wrong orientation might actually be better than the "right" orientation. After all, because there is an ever increasing amount of knowledge, we can expect some previous claims to be refuted in light of new evidences. Not only that, this in no way would disprove evolution, the argument would then follow "It evolved like this because it better suits us."

Really, can anything be claimed optimal by evolutionists?

I think the author forgot the "optimal". Yes, there are other eyes that are wired differently, but they don't have the same benefits of the human eye - they would not work for us. Is it impossible to construct an eye wired "properly"? No, it's been done. But it won't serve it's purpose as good as the current eye.
No evidence to back up any of this. Only a storyline, a mythical explanation. He might as well say it evolved from spaghettis.
These organs clearly have many similarities, no need to jump to an evolutionary myth

Are you aware that every step in the proposed evolutionary pathway from light sensitive patches to complex eyes with lenses is found within the Phylum Mollusca?

Do you not find this to be compelling evidence that the evolution of the eye as proposed is not only compelling but overwhelming?

Considering that soft eye parts do not fossilise what evidence would convince you that this pathway was evolved and not designed?
 
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ciaphas

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Even if the first species only had patches that could sense the difference between light and dark it would have been advantageous to some creatures, even if the lense didn't appear until later it would still be an advatage to see blurred images or only be able to focus at a certain distance. Any of these would help detect movement which would help the creatures find mates and escape predators.
 
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Loudmouth

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The argument includes that there is a purpose for the eye, a design objective, a reason for why everything is where it is and the way it is, that there are limitations imposed by the Designer on the organ as a whole.

What designer?

[quote"Errors" according to our limited knowledge?[/quote]

Yep. Even using our limited knowledge we can find design flaws. So much for an "all powerful designer".

For example, no designer would put the wires for a digital camera in front of the light sensing diodes. And yet, this is exactly how our eyes are designed. Our nerve cells pass in front of the retina which obscures light reacing the retina.

Really, can anything be claimed optimal by evolutionists?

If life evolved then it will not be optimal, just good enough. In the same way, no race car is perfect but someone wins every race anyway.

Yes, there are other eyes that are wired differently, but they don't have the same benefits of the human eye - they would not work for us.

Why wouldn't it work?

These organs clearly have many similarities, no need to jump to an evolutionary myth

Like I have said elsewhere, it is the PATTERN OF SIMILARITY that points to evolution. For eyes, the evidence for evolution is that we share the same eye design with all vertebrates but not molluscs. There is no reason an all powerful designer could not have given some vertebrates an eye similar to a cephalopod. However, if evolution is true then the similarities between species should fall into a nested hierarchy, and they do.
 
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Myk101

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Are you aware that every step in the proposed evolutionary pathway from light sensitive patches to complex eyes with lenses is found within the Phylum Mollusca?
What do you mean "is found"? Are they alive or fossilized? Reference, please.
I will assume alive, given encyclopedia Britannica.

I am learning new things every day...

So I did some research on it, read up a little bit. Here's what I found:
Over 160,000 species have been described, of which around 128,000 are living and about 35,000 are recorded as fossil species.

Molluscs are found in nearly all habitats. In the sea they occur from the deepest ocean trenches to the intertidal* zone. They may be found in freshwater as well as on land where they occupy a wide range of habitats. Thus, during their evolution, they have become adapted to living in nearly all available habitats.


http://orion1.paisley.ac.uk/courses/Tatner/biomedia/units/moll1.htm
So I can understand that they have an almost complete range of basic to complex eye structures, because each mollusk has what it takes to survive in it's own habitat, including the right eyes for the job ( but I think we have to keep in mind that survival is not the only overarching purpose, some mollusks also serve as a food source for other creatures). These creatures fare pretty well for themselves with the eyes each species has. Let's face it, they survived 250 million years after all, with the eyes they have (see http://www.palaeos.com/Invertebrates/Molluscs/Mollusca.htm#Evolutionary History
http://econtent-01.its.yale.edu/paleo/pdf/Mollusks.pdf

A couple of questions:

1. Are you going to stand against 200 million years of survival and tell me that the eyes of these species are "sub-optimal" (careful, I mean "optimal - optimized for the job and it's purpose" not "perfect in any respect")?

2. Are you going to expect me to believe that the simplest mollusks survived 250 million years through many natural catastrophes, temperature variations, habitat and food supply changes, etc, etc, while others evolved by natural selection (survival of the fittest) and random mutations - Both at the same time and place?

I can easily see this possible answer:
These creatures were created according to their intended purpose, to have a specific function and serve it well. They have similarities with other creatures because they share a habitat and a food source. They are well equipped to survive and also to be eaten (so that other species survive) - this is a balanced system. They adapted to different habitats and underwent minor variations, but no evolution to a family or genus degree. Could that explain the existence of current species and/or their eyes?

Considering that soft eye parts do not fossilise what evidence would convince you that this pathway was evolved and not designed?
What would convince you that it was designed and not evolved?

1. recreate the evolution of the eye (actual observation of mutations, not a cladistic tree)
2. Entire community of biologists need to agree on one cladogram, one taxonomy, one phylogeny (that is, if the evidence is CLEAR, as you claim it is - all I see is a whole lot of biologists suggesting a new tree every few years)
3. basically you are saying "considering that my evidence for evolution of the eye does not exists (is not alive or preserved), only inferred from fossils, what would convince you that it evolved?"
 
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FishFace

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What's your argument, Myk?

The steps of eye evolution are the following:

Eyespot, such as the Euglena - a simple light sensitive patch.
Eyecup, such as the planarian worm - pretty much an eyespot, but with directional capability.
Pinhole camera, such as the nautilus - can now produce an image
Fluid filled pinhole - not known, since it would be a short transitional stage, and would not fossilise distinctly from the former.
Lensed eye, such as the trilobyte eye - allows a sharp image that is also bright.
Accommodating, focusing eye such as ours - can focus at different ranges and can adapt to different light levels.

In all but two cases I have given living examples. The lensed eye I believe is also extant nowadays, but I'm no biologist, and trilobites were a good second choice. The fluid filled pinhole eye I don't know of in nature either (perhaps a biologist does) but fluid does not fossilise so we could never find it in the fossil record.
 
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T

tanzanos

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So by inferance: you are asking me to accept "by faith" "the fact" that there must have been a transitional fossil. A fossil that has yet to be discovered to explain the rapid apearance of eyes in the trilobite community.

Q. if i do not accept that "fact" am i being unscientific ?

As science comes by observation and testing we have not observed anything in relation to this matter. so it is not a fact. But then again pro evolution scientists admit "facts do not speak for themselves facts are read in light of theory" SJ Gould

You accept God by faith don't you?
:D
 
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TeddyKGB

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1. Are you going to stand against 200 million years of survival and tell me that the eyes of these species are "sub-optimal" (careful, I mean "optimal - optimized for the job and it's purpose" not "perfect in any respect")?
The question fallaciously begs teleology. There is no overweening "job" or "purpose" that can be considered prior to the existence of the structure, and thus no independent a priori criteria for optimization exists. One eye can be compared to another eye and that's about it.
2. Are you going to expect me to believe that the simplest mollusks survived 250 million years through many natural catastrophes, temperature variations, habitat and food supply changes, etc, etc, while others evolved by natural selection (survival of the fittest) and random mutations - Both at the same time and place?
All mollusks have evolved equally. Some just incurred different mutations and selection pressures than others.
I can easily see this possible answer:
These creatures were created according to their intended purpose, to have a specific function and serve it well. They have similarities with other creatures because they share a habitat and a food source. They are well equipped to survive and also to be eaten (so that other species survive) - this is a balanced system. They adapted to different habitats and underwent minor variations, but no evolution to a family or genus degree. Could that explain the existence of current species and/or their eyes?
In a transparently ad hoc manner, sure. Presumably you find yourself considering only phenotypes when you say "no evolution to a family or genus degree." There isn't any evidence at all to suggest a genetic barrier at any level of taxonomy (which, FYI, are all arbitrary beyond species), but those critters just look so darn different. Isn't that the way you're looking at it?
1. recreate the evolution of the eye (actual observation of mutations, not a cladistic tree)
Even if it were possible in principle to recreate millions of years of mutations and selection pressures in the lab, no one would ever go to such extravagant lengths just to satisfy confused creationists.
2. Entire community of biologists need to agree on one cladogram, one taxonomy, one phylogeny (that is, if the evidence is CLEAR, as you claim it is - all I see is a whole lot of biologists suggesting a new tree every few years)
Right. Tell you what: First, you get the entire community of Christians to agree on one Bible interpretation. That way at least we'll have proof of concept.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Hi there, many skeptics of evolution point out the eye, and how they assume it could not have possibly evolved. Here is an interesting article on PBS.com for the answers of how the eye evolved:

The human eye is
an organ of great
complexity, both in
structure and function. The case for evolution does not depend, even for a minute, upon a claim that living organisms are not complex or intricate. One case in point is a structure often cited as a perfect example of intelligent design: the human eye.

The eye, like a top-of-the-line modern camera, contains a self-adjusting aperture, an automatic focus system, and an inner surface that minimizes the scattering of stray light. But the sensitivity range of the eye, which gives us excellent vision in both sunlight and moonlight, far surpasses that of any film. Its neural circuitry enables the eye to automatically enhance contrast. And its color-analysis system enables it to quickly adjust to lighting conditions (incandescent, fluorescent, or sunlight) that would require a photographer to change filters and films.




The proponents of intelligent design assert that the combination of nerves, sensory cells, muscles, and lens tissue in the eye could only have been "designed" from scratch. After all, how could evolution, acting on one gene at a time, start with a sightless organism and produce an eye with so many independent parts, such as a retina, which would itself be useless without a lens, or a lens, which would be useless without a retina?
Cross-section of a
human eye

In a Darwinian world, the exquisite adaptations and specializations of living organisms are the products of natural selection, a process whereby the genetic variations -- such as size, shape, and coloration -- that give individuals the best chance to survive and reproduce are passed on to subsequent generations.

The pathway by which evolution can produce complex structures has been brilliantly explained in The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, a biologist at Oxford University. The essence of Dawkins’s explanation is simple. Given enough time (thousands of years) and material (millions of individuals in a species), many genetic changes will occur that result in slight improvements in a system or structure such as the eye. However slight that improvement, as long as it is genuine, natural selection will favor its spread throughout the species over several generations.

Birds have highly
developed eyes, in
some ways even
more so than
humans.

Little by little, one improvement at a time, the system becomes more and more complex, eventually resulting in the fully functioning, well-adapted organ that we call the eye. The retina and the lens did not have to evolve separately because they evolved together.

Evolution can be used as an explanation for complex structures if we can imagine a series of small, intermediate steps leading from the simple to the complex. Further, because natural selection will act on every one of those intermediate steps, no single one can be justified on the basis of the final structure toward which it may be leading. Each step must stand on its own as an improvement that confers an advantage on the organism that possesses it.


Building an eye
This step-by-step criterion can easily be applied to a complex organ like the eye. We begin with the simplest possible case: a small animal with a few light-sensitive cells. We could then ask, at each stage, whether natural selection would favor the incremental changes that are shown, knowing that if it would not, the final structure could not have evolved, no matter how beneficial. Starting with the simplest light-sensing device, a single photoreceptor cell, it is possible to draw a series of incremental changes that would lead directly to the lens-and-retina eye. None of the intermediate stages are unreasonable, since each requires nothing more than an incremental change in structure: an increase in cell number, a change in surface curvature, a slight increase in transparency.

This incremental process is the real reason why it is unfair to characterize evolution as mere chance. Chance plays a role in presenting random genetic variations. But natural selection, which is not random, determines which variations will become fixed in the species.

Critics might ask what good that first tiny step, perhaps only five percent of an eye, might be. As the saying goes, in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Likewise, in a population with limited ability to sense light, every improvement in vision, no matter how slight, would be favored -- and favored dramatically -- by natural selection.
Design flaws
Another way to respond to the theory of intelligent design is to carefully examine complex biological systems for errors that no intelligent designer would have committed. Because intelligent design works from a clean sheet of paper, it should produce organisms that have been optimally designed for the tasks they perform. Conversely, because evolution is confined to modifying existing structures, it should not necessarily produce perfection. Which is it?

The eye, that supposed paragon of intelligent design, offers an answer. We have already sung the virtues of this extraordinary organ, but we have not considered specific aspects of its design, such as the neural wiring of its light-sensing units. These photoreceptor cells, located in the retina, pass impulses to a series of interconnecting cells that eventually pass information to the cells of the optic nerve, which leads to the brain.
Light passes
through the lens
to the retina,
and then to the
brain.


An intelligent designer, working with the components of this wiring, would choose the orientation that produces the highest degree of visual quality. No one, for example, would suggest that the neural connections should be placed in front of the photoreceptor cells -- thus blocking the light from reaching them -- rather than behind the retina.

Less-than-perfect vision
Incredibly, this is exactly how the human retina is constructed. Visual quality is degraded because light scatters as it passes through several layers of cellular wiring before reaching the retina. Granted, this scattering has been minimized because the nerve cells are nearly transparent, but it cannot be eliminated because of the basic design flaw. Moreover, the effects are compounded because a network of vessels, which is needed to supply the nerve cells with a rich supply of blood, also sits directly in front of the light-sensitive layer, another feature that no engineer would propose.

A more serious flaw occurs because the neural wiring must poke directly through the wall of the retina to carry the nerve impulses produced by photoreceptor cells to the brain. The result is a blind spot in the retina -- a region where thousands of impulse-carrying cells have pushed the sensory cells aside. Each human retina has a blind spot roughly a millimeter in diameter -- one that would not exist if only the eye were designed with its sensory wiring behind rather than in front of the photoreceptors.
The optic nerve
connects to the
brain through a
hole in the
retina, causing a
blind spot.

Do these design problems exist because it is impossible to construct an eye that is wired properly, so that the light-sensitive cells face the incoming image? Not at all. Many organisms have eyes in which the neural wiring is neatly tucked away behind the photoreceptor layer. The squid and the octopus, for example, have a lens-and-retina eye quite similar to our own, but their eyes are wired right-side out, with no light-scattering nerve cells or blood vessels in front of the photoreceptors, and no blind spot.nside-out development
Evolution, which works by repeatedly modifying preexisting structures, can explain the inside-out nature of our eyes quite simply. The vertebrate retina evolved as a modification of the outer layer of the brain. Over time, evolution progressively modified this part of the brain for light sensitivity. Although the layer of light-sensitive cells gradually assumed a retina-like shape, it retained its original orientation, including a series of nerve connections on its surface. Conversely, mollusk eyes are wired optimally because rather than evolving from brain cells, which have wiring on the surface, they evolved from skin cells, which retained their original orientation with the wiring below the surface.

The living world is filled with examples of many other organs and structures that clearly have their roots in the opportunistic modification of a preexisting structure rather than the clean elegance of design. This does not, despite the fears of "intelligent design" advocates, amount to evidence against the existence of a Deity. Properly understood, as Darwin himself pointed out, it only deepens our respect for the power and subtlety of the Creator's remarkable ways.

Thank you for taking time to read all of this, I think this is interesting and every skeptic of Evolution should read this. ;) Thank you! :)

I have a question. Just how was the light recognized by the organism from the photo-receptor cell?
 
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Skaloop

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I have a question. Just how was the light recognized by the organism from the photo-receptor cell?

It was just recognized as light coming from a certain direction, and the organism could move towards or away from it according to its need.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Biochemistry. Think about how plants exhibit phototrophism.

Ok, I'll accept that. Although, phototrophism is not clearly understood.

So lets say that an organism has this chemical reaction to light. The organism then moves to or away from the light. This is a chemical reaction which does not involve the brain as in plants we know there is no brain. So we now have an organism that through chemical reaction moves to or away from light which lends itself to better survival rates.

What selection process would arise that would connect this chemical reaction to nerves and brains? How would a connection arise that would supply a selected advantage to this connection?
 
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TeddyKGB

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Ok, I'll accept that. Although, phototrophism is not clearly understood.
I don't know about that. The molecular pathway from phototropins to cell wall regulation was pretty complete when I last took botany.
So lets say that an organism has this chemical reaction to light. The organism then moves to or away from the light. This is a chemical reaction which does not involve the brain as in plants we know there is no brain. So we now have an organism that through chemical reaction moves to or away from light which lends itself to better survival rates.

What selection process would arise that would connect this chemical reaction to nerves and brains? How would a connection arise that would supply a selected advantage to this connection?
Are you asking how a nervous system might arise or what kind of selective advantage it would provide?
 
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FishFace

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Ok, I'll accept that. Although, phototrophism is not clearly understood.

It's pretty clearly understood, judging from the wikipedia entry, although one can't tell whether it's completely understood.

So lets say that an organism has this chemical reaction to light. The organism then moves to or away from the light. This is a chemical reaction which does not involve the brain as in plants we know there is no brain. So we now have an organism that through chemical reaction moves to or away from light which lends itself to better survival rates.

What selection process would arise that would connect this chemical reaction to nerves and brains? How would a connection arise that would supply a selected advantage to this connection?

Are you accepting the hypothetical eye-evolution sequence as plausible and probably, then? By shifting the debate, you appear to be acknowledging that the eye's evolution isn't actually such a large obstacle.

Nerve evolution is, of course, another topic, although once you have action potentials it's a fairly easy thing to envisage, I think.
Having said that, with a quick wiki it would seem that nervous systems, extant in nematode worms without eyes, had already evolved by the time animal eyes had evolved.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I don't know about that. The molecular pathway from phototropins to cell wall regulation was pretty complete when I last took botany.

Here is a good site that gives what we know and what we don't know.
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e32/32b.htm
Are you asking how a nervous system might arise or what kind of selective advantage it would provide

No, I am asking how a system connects the nervous system and brain to the light-sensitive patch, when the advantage must work on something that is already there. Meaning there would have had to be some mutation that would connect the two and it would have to have been advantageous.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It's pretty clearly understood, judging from the wikipedia entry, although one can't tell whether it's completely understood.

Exactly my point.


Are you accepting the hypothetical eye-evolution sequence as plausible and probably, then? By shifting the debate, you appear to be acknowledging that the eye's evolution isn't actually such a large obstacle.

How am I shifting the debate?:scratch:

Nerve evolution is, of course, another topic, although once you have action potentials it's a fairly easy thing to envisage, I think.

Action potentials?

Having said that, with a quick wiki it would seem that nervous systems, extant in nematode worms without eyes, had already evolved by the time animal eyes had evolved.

So what would give rise to the connection of the nervous system and brain to the patch?
 
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