How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about...

[Papias]

... It's a very quick "fly by" or "fly over", not even mentioning the fall of man and the restoration of man between, It's trying to summarize the entire life of an entire universe and earth like planets, from beginning to end... It leaves out a lot, and I mean, a lot of detail...

Conversations I've had in the past about the sequence of things in Genesis have gone like this:

Creationist: "isn't it amazing that the sequence of events in Genesis perfectly matches the order that they really happened?! It's proof that ancient people were spoken to by God, and that it should be read literally, since they couldn't have known that."

Me: "Um ... they don't match very well. Here are a bunch of things that happened in a different order....."

C: "Oh, but I don't mean chronological order. I mean "topical order". Or order of importance. or something."

M: "But didn't you start out taking about the sequential order, read literally? That means what happened first, next, and so on. That's the chronological order."

C: "oh, you aren't looking at it right."

M: "how else should I look at it besides reading it? You are the one who claimed it was in exact correct order, read literally".

C:" you have to look at it with Faith."

M: " I am. Faith that God did the creating, not faith that it gives the correct sequential order or that it should be read literally."

C: "I never said it did!"

M: "yes, you did. That was your whole point. It sounds like you are moving the goalposts....."

*****************************

So help me out. Wasn't the whole point that they are in the same literal order as the real events? But they aren't. They aren't even close. And that's even if we ignore Genesis 2 and only look at Genesis 1.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Neogaia777]

Conversations I've had in the past about the sequence of things in Genesis have gone like this:

Creationist: "isn't it amazing that the sequence of events in Genesis perfectly matches the order that they really happened?! It's proof that ancient people were spoken to by God, since they couldn't have known that."

Me: "Um ... they don't match very well. Here are a bunch of things that happened in a different order....."

C: "Oh, but I don't mean chronological order. I mean "topical order". Or order of importance. or something."

M: "But didn't you start out taking about the sequential order? That means what happened first, next, and so on. That's the chronological order."

C: "oh, you aren't looking at it right."

M: "how else should I look at it besides reading it? You are the one who claimed it was in exact correct order".

C:" you have to look at it with Faith."

M: " I am. Faith that God did the creating, not faith that it gives the correct sequential order."

C: "I never said it did!"

M: "yes, you did. That was your whole point. It sounds like you are moving the goalposts....."

*****************************

So help me out. Wasn't the whole point that they are in the same order as the real events? But they aren't. They aren't even close. And that's even if we ignore Genesis 2 and only look at Genesis 1.

In Christ-

Papias

See my prior post, I edited it...

I am one who literally thinks that this (reality) is a simulation, a very complex computer program of sorts and due to that, do quite literally think that it all could have come about any way in the sense of a computer program, just like the scripture says... But, abandoning that for the moment, look at the Hebrew, and my prior post and link, it is clearly not just taking about this reality alone, if it is even talking about it at all, until a certain point in Genesis...

How do you know there were not flying fish?

When God says sun, stars, moon, he revealed them to be seen on earth

The watery abyss and dry land and firmament is talking about having no separation yet between realities in the universe... In the middle is heaven it says...

Let there be light, is talking about the very first source of light at the creation of this or a universe...

As for your other points, I addressed them in my previous post, you have to understand that is is symbolically talking about other realities and the formation of the universe and those realities, like the spirit realm(s) as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You have to understand that "In the beginning.." "ALL WAS "ONE""...

There was no separation of anything... Time, space (distance) Physicality were not a factor, Light was not even separate from darkness... It was only when God spoke from that place, that the separating and dividing, and divisions began, which is what almost all of Genesis 1:1 to 2:4 is talking about...

Genesis 1:1 to 2:4 is talking about the very beginning of this, proceeding from all being one, being divided and separated, then coming back together again, by Genesis 2:1-4, it is covering so much, that it completely "leaves out" the fall of man back to his restoration... Which is what stage we've been in, the fallen reality is all we know, and it is trying to relate things in a fallen reality, to explain things in another completely different kind of reality that is not fallen...

There is a way in which what is true of the physical reality is also true of the non-physical realities... There is a way, in which, what is true of an earth, or a planet, is also true of a universe and all it's other dimensions and realities... And, also, to take it a step further, There is a way in which what is true of a human individual, is also true of both of these, expressed in Adam before the Fall, and in Jesus Christ, after his Baptism, and perhaps before his Baptism, but definitely afterward...

God Bless!

 

[Calminian]

Still not following where the OP is going.

How did the ancient Bible writers know?

Because, indirectly or directly, God told them the story of their origins.

That's how I see it, anyway. Not sure if we're on the same page.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Maybe, primitive is the wrong word, simpler maybe, but, you've got to admit, they had very limited (scientific or otherwise) knowledge about how life came about on the earth, How'd they get it right, how could they have known, by what they alone knew, back then?

God Bless!

what are you suggesting they "knew"?

 

[Papias]

How do you know there were not flying fish?

How is that relevant? It says "birds" on day 5, which is simply out of order. Flying fish on day 5 doesn't negate the mention of birds on day 5.

When God says sun, stars, moon, he revealed them to be seen on earth

Unscriptural. It doesn't say "cleared it up so they could be seen". It says that God made the sun, stars and moon on day four.

The watery abyss and dry land and firmament is talking about having no separation yet between realities in the universe... In the middle is heaven it says...

It says nothing about different "realities". It doesn't say that the middle his heaven. Look, if you want to make up your own origin story, that's fine - but why pretend that Genesis says something other than what it says?

As for your other points, I addressed them in my previous post, you have to understand that is is symbolically talking about other realities and the formation of the universe and those realities, like the spirit realm(s) as well...

God Bless!

You didn't address them. Your OP claimed that the Genesis story gives the same order as things actually happened - but reading Genesis shows that it's not the same order at all.

If it is symbolic, that's fine - but if it's symbolic, then it doesn't have to be in the same order. It sounds like you are contradicting yourself, and myself (and, apparently, others) are trying to figure out your position.

I am one who literally thinks that this (reality) is a simulation, a very complex computer program of sorts and due to that, do quite literally think that it all could have come about any way in the sense of a computer program, just like the scripture says... ......

... talking about other realities and the formation of the universe and those realities, like the spirit realm(s) as well...

God Bless!

And all of that seems to be the exact opposite of claiming that genesis lists actual events as written in the order they happened - aside from the fact that I don't see anything in Genesis about computers, programs, alternate realities, or even spirit worlds.

Maybe it would be easier to just write out what you want to use for your scripture and use that?

Papias

 

[Matthew-three-two]

Umm... what? The order is not "correct". It's all mixed up. Again and again the order in Genesis is completely wrong if read literally.

Some examples, by day of "creation":


Initial State

Watery abyss

wrong - Land has always existed on Earth

1

Light (no Sun yet)

wrong - Light without sun?

2

Firmament/inverted bowl

wrong - Hebrew word shows this to be solid, but there has never been a solid dome over the earth.

3

Dry land, then All land plants

wrong - sea animals preceded land plants

4

Moon, Sun, stars and the whole universe

wrong - Those existed long before life and most of the other things made in days 1-3.

5

Aquatic Animals & Birds

wrong - Birds were not before animals on land.

6

Land animals and humans

But this is a different order than Genesis 2.

7

Rest

Just like any other primitive creation story, some things are right here and there - especially since most of these stories (as shown above) go from simpler to complex, as makes sense.

Our story isn't anywhere close to being right. The most accurate stories are by religions made up recently - like scientology. But that, of course, only means that we knew more when they made up the religion, not that scientology is right.

In Christ-
Papias

I won't pretend to have come up with this myself, but some smart people do see a great parallel between Genesis 1 and what scientists have found. I am referring to many Old Earth Creationists like the people at Reasons To Believe : Where Modern Science & Faith Converge. The key is to take the outlook that from Genesis 1:2 onwards, that the story is being told from the perspective of the "Spirit hovering above the waters", i.e., the waters of the earth. And from what I understand, current science says that the earth could have been covered with watery oceans (e.g., see History of Earth - Wikipedia). The appearance of light on the first day was when the sunlight began to show through the previously fully opaque layer over the earth. Then the second day was the formation of the atmosphere with the cloud cover above separated from the waters beneath. And so forth. There are many blogs, books and articles that explain this perspective in great detail and they even have a scientific model (the RTB model) based on scripture where they challenge the scientific community to see which model (naturalistic vs their Biblical model) best conforms to the science which is being discovered and will be discovered in the future.

Along another line, it can be said that Genesis 1:1 is the only ancient text that matches what science has found in the Big Bang - "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". If you look at the history of cosmology, in fact many naturalistic scientists fought the concept of the Big Bang because they saw a parallel to the Biblical account. There is an account of Einstein saying he made the "biggest blunder of his career" when he added a lambda variable in order to show that his general theory of relativity accommodated a steady state universe rather than an expanding universe. (e.g., see http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/17/einsteins-greatest-blunder-was-really-a-blunder/) Had Einstein taken the Hebrew scriptures more seriously, then he might have avoided this mistake and not changed his original equations.

So yes, a good argument can be made for divine inspiration of the Scriptures from the beginning. It is rather humbling to think about the Scriptures being written by unlearned men thousands of years ago and getting it right according to how scientists have found the universe to be in the last few hundred years.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about right? According to evolution? How did they know, unless they had "help"?

God Bless!

They knew because they had the Word of God.
[2Peter 3:5 KJV]

 

[JellyQuest]

Maybe, primitive is the wrong word, simpler maybe, but, you've got to admit, they had very limited (scientific or otherwise) knowledge about how life came about on the earth, How'd they get it right, how could they have known, by what they alone knew, back then?

God Bless!

Adam had God-God is very smart ,as in ALL KNOWING .And adam was still alive for a very very very long time .into the days of many many many generations after him . methuselah and lamech were alive with Noah ..passing away just before the flood . Noah (who personally knew his grandfather methuselah, who personally knew Seth the third son of Adam) was alive and had three sons ., his son Shem who lived before the flood ,through the flood and after the flood - was still living in the days of Abram (whose name god changed to Abraham ) ... get the picture ?

they had first hand knowledge of GOD and the creation ,passed down from god himself -to Adam etc .

 

[Papias]

I won't pretend to have come up with this myself....
So yes, a good argument can be made for divine inspiration of the Scriptures from the beginning.

It's good you didn't come up with that yourself, because looking at it shows that it's all unscriptural. The two parts contradict each other, and worse, they both work by changing the words in Genesis. If one wants to interpret them symbolically, that's fine - but saying that they actually say different words than we find in Genesis is not an honest way to approach this.

You can see from post #17 (which lists some of the many things that don't fit), or from just reading Genesis, that it doesn't match.

In fact, if one is to look to creation stories for which ones match what actually happened, the Chinese Taoist creation story given in the book of Huainanzi is a much closer match than Genesis. Similarly, in Hinduism, the incarnations of Vishnu (Avatars) are a much closer match to the process of evolution.
They are:

1. Fish/man
2. Turtle
3. Boar
4. Lion
5. Short man
6. Warrior
7. Workman
8. Charioteer
9. Buddha
10. Man on flying mount

Many Hindus see these as reflecting the following actual evolutionary stages:

1. Fish
2. Reptile
3. Early Mammal
4. Mammal
5. Hominid/smaller human
6. Warriors
7. Workers (such as after the agricultural revolution)
8. Charioteers
9. Thinkers/learners
10. People with airplanes.

That seems like a lot closer match than Genesis.

So I would not advise Christians to claim that their creation story matches reality and thus shows divine information transmission. It just doesn't work - while actually supporting other religions over Christianity.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[JellyQuest]

some folks simply don't believe

 

[DrBubbaLove]

some folks simply don't believe

Don't believe what?
That God created everything and gave man a soul or one particularly limited view/understanding of the creation stories?

 

[JellyQuest]

Don't believe what?
That God created everything and gave man a soul or one particularly limited view/understanding of the creation stories?

Dont believe the account， dont have childlike faith ，really at the heart of it,just dont believe .not truley.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dont believe the account， dont have childlike faith ，really at the heart of it,just dont believe .not truley.

Am not certain that is the actual claim being made here at all. Seems to me the message is that unless my belief/understanding agrees with whatever the OP's happens to be, then I do not truly believe.

 

[LastSeven]

How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about right? According to evolution? How did they know, unless they had "help"?

God Bless!

Obviously God told somebody at some point and it was passed on until somebody wrote it down.

What are you suggesting with "help"? Are you asking if aliens told them?

 

[-57]

How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about right? According to evolution? How did they know, unless they had "help"?

God Bless!

The bible doesn't teach evolutionism. The bible teaches special creation.
The order of creation per the bible doesn't align with the made up orders proposed by those that believe in evolutionism.

 

[Papias]

The order of creation per the bible doesn't align with the ..... orders proposed by those that believe in evolutionism.

Wow, -57, how often do you and I agree? Not very often. I agree that the two orders simply don't match.

In Christ-
Papias

 

[-57]

Wow, -57, how often do you and I agree? Not very often. I agree that the two orders simply don't match.

In Christ-
Papias

Which is just one of the reasons why evolutionism and christianity don't get along with each other very well.

 

[Papias]

Which is just one of the reasons why evolutionism and christianity don't get along with each other very well.

That depends on the Christian. In my case, and that of many others, they get along great. For some others, not so much.

 

[-57]

That depends on the Christian. In my case, and that of many others, they get along great. For some others, not so much.

They don't get along as great as you think....It destroys original sin and why we have a sin nature.
In order for it to "get along" portions of the bible need to be re-written. Are you really willing to do that to your bible?