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Hands Open said:I see we have reached an impass.
I believe that in order for evil to exist, in order for man to fall, it must be within his capability to do so.
The only one who could have made man in such a way in this faith is this faiths god.
I continue to assert that a god with all these traits should have come up with something better.
"God works in mysterious ways." , "I must trust and have faith." is the answers I'm given.
I cannot serve nor believe in a god who uses pain to teach.
You may say he uses it because that is part of our world. But I say that is only because he made it that way. I cannot believe in a god who could let this happen.
No god who loved his children so much and could remove pain, teach in only positve ways, save everyone that he created, would make us a world where that is virtually impossible.
Nor can I let pass those attrocitys that are done in his name or the name of any god.
I see a god who could have prevented all this. And didn't.
I think in my very denial to believe I have proved my point. God knew he would create me and then give me no evidence I would believe.
In the end Reformationist, I would like to believe you to be one of a small number of christians I have met in my journeys who I do not think capable of perverting what in lots of way is a religion that has many good ideas in it. Many ideas that I happen to agree with.
I actually have no qualms leaving this discussion at an impass with you as I see no danger in doing so.
My only concern and warning is, while spreading your faith to others, do not be careless. Do not let them leave with the idea that they are somehow better than others, or backed in whatever they think.
Instead of saying "God is on our side", let them leave with "Strive to be on the side of God." Maybe then I'll see less holy wars......
What I also believe is that we have many differences in what an omnipotent god should do. I don't think at this time that we'll be able to reconcile them.
Where you say that it is the pride of man, I say that it is the duty. We seem to split on philosophical terms.
For the present though I am going to let this be. There is nothing I haven't already said that is pertinent to the idea. Besides, I have much that I'm neglecting in order to spend the time in this forum and I can no longer put it on the back burner.
Best of luck to you all.
me said:
I understand you to be saying that God created everything, and therefore God created evil. I am stating that a distinction must be made between creating the potential for evil to occur, and actually creating evil.
We are created as moral creatures. It is we who are to be responsible for what we say and what we do.
your response said:The idea remains. Unicorns are no a potential possibility. Just as something that is red and green all over is not a possibility. in order for me to be able to do something that thing must be able to be done. This is simple enough. We must then take the next step to saying that if god created everything then he created the "potential everythings" as well. Any way you slice it, it still come down to him.
Unfortunate really, that you picked up on the potentiality of a unicorn, but not of nuclear holocaust.
While I would contend that the possiblity of a unicorn contains no logical contradiction, whereas the concept of red being green does, no matter.
As I have stated previously, I believe that the distinction between potentiality and actuality to contain no contradiction. You disagree. There is no further that we can go down this path.
.me said:Apparently then, to God at least, with full knowledge of the beginning and the end, creating a world in which evil would reign for a time, was nevertheless deemed ,by Him, as a worthwhile venture
response said:You do realize that even though you may have rationalized it for yourself, you are admiting that God created evil. Or even if you wish to contest that, you still claim to worship a wholly good God who allows evil. Why in this context is of no consequesce. A god that loves you and can do no wrong should not be able to do this. It is this very contradiction that I wished to point out from the start.
I have given God full sovereignty and full responsibility for everything yes. At the same time, I recognize that God has made us fully capable of making moral choices, of love, of hate. I maintain that we are created of such a nature, that it is we, and not our Creator, that bears the responsibility for the evil of our choices.
Again, you disagree, so again, an impasse.
(Accusing me of rationalizing my belief adds as little to the debate as would be added if I were to accuse you of rationalizing your disbelief, or accuse you of flattering yoruself,by the way- far better to attack the message, and not the messenger, don't you think?)
me said:Limited as we are in out knowledge and experience, we are not in a position to judge until we drink from the cup of eternity ourselves.
response said:This quote has always scared me. I'm sure the answer most will have is that I have no understanding of faith, but that has nothing to do with my fear. There are many things in the bible that lead men to commit attrocitys like the inquisition, the crusades, and the salem witch trials. Claiming that you have found absolute truth in the one true god is a heady statement. But if just accept it at face value and don't check it to see if is indeed correct than you have commited a grave error. One that has lead, and still leads to needless deaths the world over. You must judge him to what you know as right.How in the world did we get from my quote to the tangent of the Salem witch Trials. Your arguement appears to have gone and flown off madly in all directions!!!
Where have I claimed that I have found absolute truth??? Is this argument directed to my quote, or somebody else in your Christian past???
Certainly, I follow the lead of Raphe, whom I have grown to respect, in my insistance that we do not have absolute truth, but can only understand the truth as through a glass darkly.
I state that we are limited in our knowledge and experience, and you respond that is that my statement is scary because I am claiming absolute truth????
Wow!!!
Sometimes Christian metaphors are like inkblots. The free associations that arise from presenting them are truly mindboggling!!!
How could you possibly think that I, or Christians in general accept everything at face value?
How has the resurrection of Christ, which I was referring to, led to the needless deaths the world over?
Look, without getting into a debate over the relative good or evil of the Crusades, Inquistion, etc., etc., suffice it to say that the 20th century with the waning of religious belief, has been far and away the bloodiest, most treacherous, and most dangerous in the history of mankind. The two bloodiest regimes of all? that would be the athiest regimes of mainland China and the USSR, respectively.
In other words, whether or not we believe in the Bible any longer, the message is the same. Bottom line for believers and non-believers alike, if there is evil in this world, don't blame God. The source of the evil is not the Creator-it is you and me.
I have given God full sovereignty and full responsibility for everything yes. At the same time, I recognize that God has made us fully capable of making moral choices, of love, of hate. I maintain that we are created of such a nature, that it is we, and not our Creator, that bears the responsibility for the evil of our choices.
Again, you disagree, so again, an impasse.
How in the world did we get from my quote to the tangent of the Salem witch Trials. Your arguement appears to have gone and flown off madly in all directions!!!
Where have I claimed that I have found absolute truth??? Is this argument directed to my quote, or somebody else in your Christian past???
I state that we are limited in our knowledge and experience, and you respond that is that my statement is scary because I am claiming absolute truth????
Wow!!!
Sometimes Christian metaphors are like inkblots. The free associations that arise from presenting them are truly mindboggling!!!
How could you possibly think that I, or Christians in general accept everything at face value?
How has the resurrection of Christ, which I was referring to, led to the needless deaths the world over?
Look, without getting into a debate over the relative good or evil of the Crusades, Inquistion, etc., etc., suffice it to say that the 20th century with the waning of religious belief, has been far and away the bloodiest, most treacherous, and most dangerous in the history of mankind. The two bloodiest regimes of all? that would be the athiest regimes of mainland China and the USSR, respectively.
In other words, whether or not we believe in the Bible any longer, the message is the same. Bottom line for believers and non-believers alike, if there is evil in this world, don't blame God. The source of the evil is not the Creator-it is you and me.
Hands Open said:So just do me a favor and get the reformationist so that I can actually have a conversation that might go somewhere.
That is because you continue to believe that what you, a finite creation, believe to be better is better than what God, the infinite and sovereign Creator, has established. It's this very mindframe that led to the Fall of mankind.
About pain
That is certainly your choice. That is not all God uses to teach but I will not say that pain and suffering are not tools that He uses to conform us to the image of His Son. Either way, we will all stand before His throne on the Day of Judgment and all of our rationalizations and excuses for failing to give the Lord His due worship will be accounted for.
That is only because you believe that the creation deserves better than they've gotten from God. It simply isn't so. The creation owes God for everything and regularly fails to worship Him for anything.
Again, the assumption that we have the right to rebel against God's authority to establish how life should be lived is what brought mankind to ruin in the first place. Whenever man assumes that his finite understanding of events is sufficient to determine the best course for history he is making the claim that god, the only perfect Being, has erred.
.With all due respect, your disbelief doesn't negate the authority of God to do with His creation as He sees fit. Your claim that God did not provide enough evidence for you to submit to Him will hold no water on the day of your judgment
Possibly. Just so that I'm clear, what is it that I attribute to the pride of man that you attribute to him as his duty?
James H said:It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel. The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.
My questions, are:
1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?
2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell. How did Satan aquire so much power. Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?
God allready new what Satan would do before he ever created him.James H said:It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel. The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.
My questions, are:
1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?
2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell. How did Satan aquire so much power. Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?
jehovahway said:God allready new what Satan would do before he ever created him.
We haft to under stand God is working out future of our lives and he uses satan along with other things to bring
about his end results
Even at this very min God has bound at the river where usa
service men are 4 of Satans most powerful Angels that are
evil from the word go.
They will be release at Jesus Christ return to join satan to
try to stop THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS from
taking over the earth that now belongs to Jesus Christ.
Reformationist said:In the meantime, I will merely enlighten you to the fact that this is not a debate forum. If you wish to debate this topic then you may want to ask one of the mods to move this the General Apologetics forum.
Hands Open said:This whole place is debateable...
but I want to make it clear that you stand on blind fatih
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