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raphe said:You didn't read the rest of the sentence, nor the verses given. God says that in 2 Peter 3:9 that He isn't willing that any man should perish, yet who could resist the will of God if not for Him givng us a choice to resist that will?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If we can resist God's will, then we can doom ourselves against that will of God's that we not perish. Romans 9:22 and 8:28 just says that no matter what circumstances evil brings about, those that love God and answer the call will be taken care of and evil will work out to good for them, eventually. God is able to restore all things - even life, as I already said. This is an assurance for those that believe in Him, but those that do not, have not that assurance.
Why do you think God created satan knowing he would become evil if it were not important that a choice be given through his representaion of everything opposite of God - God's antithesis. We do not know the powers of life and death or how to make dimensions sing together in harmony like the String or M theory projects as a unifying theorum. Without the dark contrast of evil, there would be no definition or knowing God and the glory of this existence, as Rom. 9:22 suggests. Could that be? It sure looks that way, as evil surely seems to be evident in mankind as main influence and enslaver to sin. God gave us a way out of enslavement, but those that insist on joining the dark side of evil against Him and wittingly or unwittingly become sons of their father satan, "sons of diobedience", choose to not accept the restoration and eternal life He offers. Who can fully love unless they choose to submit themselves to that love? How would we be anything other than robots without a choice to serve or rebel? The problem is choice, Neo, yet people complain about it as though they could make a universe, man, and then reveal themselves in a better way from a position of complete ignorance and powerlessness to even create a blade of grass to teach. By faith we believe this is the only way God could have created man and all things so He could enjoy fellowship and love. He risked evil in order to gain love and fellowship, IMO, and then paid the price Himself, manifesting Himself in the flesh of man, Jesus, and suffering the penalty of death, defeating evil's curse at the cross. Someday, evil is eternally seperated from God and His family, but it is never destroyed completely out of existence. Again, why? Why does it have to exist and not just be non-existent? I would say that it is the only way for all the rest to exist. The scriptures say God isn't willing for any to perish and that He pays the penalty for death Himself, yet is bound to not violate our will and choice to either become sons of God or remain under the influence of satan, in the dark. Man is responsible for a choice. Otherwise there would be no judgment.
Complaining about life and accusing God of evil isn't really honest in many cases, IMO. It is just another excuse to justify ones sins and keep them. They are so powerful in their bonds that many cannot imagine living without them and then feeling a need to justify theirselves, their only alternative to attacking that which has given them the breathe of life. Istead of speaking life and blessing with the mouth they are given by the Creator, they speak death and curses towards Him. They prefer darkness to the light because their deeds are evil, and this is what John has said, as I quote:
Joh 3:19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
What you say is that you understand omnipotence better than God if what the Bible says is true? So you reject it for a truth that suits what you desire.Hands Open said:This is very unfair in my eyes. Simply because I don't beleive in your God, anymore, I might add, I'm now practicing evei deeds and what's more I prefer them? This is all nonsense. I was a christian. It was then I was compelled to justify what was false.
This whole problem is surrounded by a lack of understanding in OMNIPOTENCE. You seek to justify things as they are because you never ask "could this have been better?" With your faith you spew condemnation on all who would speak for truth and label their deeds evil. Yet when you discard Mormonism as I do, you find your actions holy and right. I see and ugly dicotomy that allows you to condemn all denial of your faith as evil while you are free to deny others with impunity.
I also whole heartedly agree with you as to God not wanting anyone to perish. I couldn't fathom a God who would want that to happen to his creation. I also can't fathom a God who is all powerful not creating this world in a way in which would avoid sending those he professes to so dearly love to a hell he created himself. You may let your children learn by experience and pain because that is the facts of life in this world in which we live. But what parent wouldn't want to save their child from pain yet stil impart them with the same knowledge? This is out of our hands as people and parents. But not God's. The problem is inherent in the design. The design is his. If you say aht choice is te reason then you seem to think that God couldn't tweak that either. Yet I believe that choice would be something he created as well.
My question is again, how can you believe in a god that could have made it better but didn't?
raphe said:What you say is that you understand omnipotence better than God if what the Bible says is true? So you reject it for a truth that suits what you desire.
Where is it in scripture that God dearly loves those that hate Him and speak against Him? You think you can do better, but I say that is ridiculous when you cannot give life to anything.
You ask in a Christian forum for answers, but prefer to debate. That is for the aspologetics forum. I told you what the Bible says and gave the scriptures. It seems reasonable to me what God has said about the nature of man and of evil. He gives a choice, even though He knows beforehand tjhose who are vessels of honor and destruction, causing, always, for things to work out for good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose. He can speak that way beause of omnisience, but we cannot and do not have such power. It is a simple as that. You say you do not want to justify rejection of God's provision and that it is not evil to speak of Him as unjust.....I disagree, but this really isn't the forum for debate.
Romans 2:4 Dont you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or dont you care? Cant you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?
5 But no, you wont listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world,
6 will judge all people according to what they have done.
7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds.
9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinningfor the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
You flatter yourself.Hands Open said:I speak this way because these idea's contradict. I ask because this god cannot have all these attributes and give us this of all worlds. But fine, have it your way. Save this area so that no one can question nonsense and then make sure to stay away from apologetics forums.
solomon said:You flatter yourself.
solomon said:No, you flatter yourself by thinking you can come close to touching the ideas that Raphe presented in an open debate, here there or anywhere...
Agree or disagree, the quality of the arguments and ideas put forth by him are far and above superior to anything you've written on this thread.
Nobody is hiding behind the rules of this forum. You flatter yourself to think that that is what Raphe is doing.
What Raphe posts here is often a difficult read for almost anyone. And since even the posted rules and intent of this Outreach forum are apparently beyond your ability to comprehend, it is doubtful that you will ever be able to even comprhend anything that Raphe writes here, let alone debate him in a meaningful way.
Of course it is not wrong to seek God and want answers to questions, and I never said that it was. Putting words in my mouth is not appreciated. The Bible says that if we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him. If you really want some information on the book of Mormon, comparing it to what the Bible says, here is a link:Hands Open said:Do I? Do I not instead present a picture of myself as not having the answer to any proof of existance? Is it wrong to believe that no one else can know these things for certain? All we have are the documents that profess some kind of truth. Is it wrong of me then to examine these documents, these books and then show what I've found them to be? If I question the book of Mormon you'll probably be right behind me. But if I question you then somehow I've overstepped my bounds.
You may have done this as you claim, but assumng I would be untrue to myself in likewise fashion would be a false assumption. Not everybody would do as you have described. My search has led me to work with the handicapped and poor at a city mission group. I have never been satisfied with playing religious games, but have gone and learned about the Bible enough to hear that Jesus wants us to love and worship Him with more than lip service. The apostle Paul puts it this way:Hands Open said:What I do know is that this is how it happened to me. When I was a church goer I surrounded myself with those who thought like me. If I was presented with facts I didn't like I ran back to my church and looked for any reason to believe that thses things were untrue. Nobody wants to believe that their god is false. Instead we fight and fight against what is so plain. We explain away obvious contradictions with fanciful verbage and ignore what is plain. We construct places where we cannot be challenged and then hide there professing our truths with those of like mind, never attmpting to check ourselves. I know this to be for I used to be in it. Always there when the church doors were open. Paying lipservice to the problems I encountered and then simply ignoring them.
Again, you make the assumption others do not ask questions. We all have to ask questions in order to know. The arrogance of all men comes from the pride of life. we are all born with it, and it is not a personal attack to speak of the arrogance of man, as we all think that we generate the life we have when we wake up in the morning. It is God that gives us our next breathe to either speak life or death, curse or blessing. It is the fallen nature of all men, including myself when not walking in His Spirit, to be self-serving and arrogant. I have no disdain for you and am doubley guilty of as much or more sin than you, and that only inspires me to not play games with words but speak the truth in love. To give lipservice to you would be wrong and a disservice.Hands Open said:For all you who do not like my words your distain is not for me. Save your time telling me how arrogant I am or how I simply refuse to see. I've been right there in the thick of it all. I don't pretend to say that questioning what you are told to simply believe is easy. But it is what we all must do. I simply bring the questions to where there are none. I will no longer suffer safe houses against reason. It is the realization of my very limitations that keeps me humble friend. But that which I can challenge, that which is in my grasp to question, I do. And I make my decisions according to my findings. There is no evil in this.
James H said:It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel.
The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.
My questions, are:
1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?
2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell.
How did Satan aquire so much power.
Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?
James H said:You didn't answer my first question. and according to christian theology, Satan can be in many places at once.
When God cast Lucifer down, why didn't God destroy him? This would have prevented a lot of suffering on earth.
raphe said:You have a gift, Ref. You say it with such economy, being concise. My way is so clumbsy, that it leaves people wondering what I said......Oh well, I get an E for effort.....
Hands Open said:Now answer this one simple question.
Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with, right?
Remember no using the book to prove the book!
This is an idea. If God created everything, then he created everything.
True of false? Oh yeah, and why? And please for simplicity sake, be brief. I will do the same.
Hands Open said:...
No. For Christian theology of all stripes, God has never been attributed with creating evil. God created a world in which it possible that his creation could choose to do evil deeds, to think evil thoughts, or to speak evil, but until the moment when we commit evil, evil exists only as a potentiality.Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with, right?
Remember no using the book to prove the book! ...
In the way that you are meaning, false. God only created a world in which evil would be possible. There is no compulsion in our choices, or even in our choice to believe. To do good, or not are both possiblities for us. To believe in God, or not, too are both possiblities for us.This is an idea. If God created everything, then he created everything.
True of false? Oh yeah, and why? And please for simplicity sake, be brief. I will do the same.
In other words, the world has created as it is to give us, who are all created in God's image, the freedom that He Himself enjoys. Evil is not derived from God, who is all good, but from our abuse of our God-given gift of freedom.
ugly, spewing, nonsense...Hands Open said:Frankly my patience is being tried. The flattery in this thread is you on yourselves. I've been civil and met with silly indignation.
(Now insert your insulting comment here)
Hands Open said:...Save this area so that no one can question nonsense and then make sure to stay away from apologetics forums.
Hands Open said:...With your faith you spew condemnation on all who would speak for truth and label their deeds evil.
Hands Open said:...I see and ugly dicotomy that allows you to condemn all denial of your faith as evil while you are free to deny others with impunity.
solomon said:ugly, spewing, nonsense...
I don't find such rhetoric as below the least bit fitting for civil discourse.
Reformationist said:Do you mind if anyone else addresses this? Are you simply asking if God created evil?
Thanks,
God bless
solomon said:Hands Open said:...
No. For Christian theology of all stripes, God has never been attributed with creating evil. God created a world in which it possible that his creation could choose to do evil deeds, to think evil thoughts, or to speak evil, but until the moment when we commit evil, evil exists only as a potentiality.
In the way that you are meaning, false. God only created a world in which evil would be possible. There is no compulsion in our choices, or even in our choice to believe. To do good, or not are both possiblities for us. To believe in God, or not, too are both possiblities for us.
In other words, the world has created as it is to give us, who are all created in God's image, the freedom that He Himself enjoys. Evil is not derived from God, who is all good, but from our abuse of our God-given gift of freedom.
These are the answers I was expecting. First let me thank you for being brief.
Second, in order for anything to be potentially, it must first be.
In other words, things that are impossible cannot happen, potentially or actually.
Therefore we still end with a god who created evil.
I know that christian doctrine doesn't support this and it's that very contradiction that I wish to address.
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